Tag Archive | flat earth

The firmament in Biblical Genesis – something visible and SOLID – the meaning of raqia

footstool

Acts 7:49 ”Heaven is My throne, and the earth a footstool of My feet”

And God said, Let there be A FIRMAMENT in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters (Gen. 1:6)

(Bible verses further down below.)

Heroic efforts have been made to explain away the firmament which we can read about in the Bible, partly because of the clear implications that it is durable enough to hold waters above it, but still small (and near) enough to enclose the celestial bodies which Genesis talks about. This Biblical information bothers many Christians due to their hard task to try to fit in the moon landings, the ball-shaped earth and heliocentrism – which are believed to be modern truths that must be saved to all costs. The Evolution theory is naturally impossible to save if the earth is not made through a Big Bang billions of years ago because lots of time is required in order to make this theory sound plausible.

It is more honest to read the Bible without trying to save certain theories, even if we are convinced they are true, because it is never a sin to read Biblical texts in its proper context. Even secular people must admit that the Bible has over the years proved to be a highly trustworthy book because of the many details about cities, people, leaders, wars, coins, etc, which have parallels also in other old sources as well as in history and archaeology. It is therefore interesting to see what the Bible says about the firmament – which this blog post is about. If we try to be neutral with no preconceived ideas, what does the Bible really say about it?

Since also theologians can be in error about the Bible, even if it is scarce, the best tools to verify the meaning of a term are:

  1. The Bible itself. How is the same term used elsewhere in the Bible, and what is the context?
  2. Other old trustworthy writings from the same period, particularly those referred to in the Bible (the book of Enoch, the book of Jasher). How do they explain the term?
  3. Old church fathers – the older the better. What quotes do they use, and how do they understand the term? (See here that the church fathers indeed believed in a physical firmament.)

Based on the above tools, it is very hard to come to any other conclusion than that the firmament is a physical object above the sky – the outer edge – and the celestial bodies are placed in it.

The Jewish historian Josephus /Ch.1. The constitution of the world and the disposition of the elements/:

1. — After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts, and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews.  

If the firmament is constructed as the Bible explains, naturally no moon landing couldmark twain ever have taken place. With or without the firmament problem, there is absolutely no evidence that man has ever been to the moon, but there is evidence that NASA has lied to us and faked all moon missions (check out also other NASA lies linked to the ISS, the Hubble telescope, etc). The reason why it is now 2018 and people still believe man has been on the moon, is because they are convinced that NASA would not lie to them, because they believe thousands or millions of people must have been involved (which is totally false), and because they have not seen films such as ”A funny thing happened on the way to the moon” (proves cheating), or Jarrah White’s youtube channel Moonfaker, or Marcus Allen’s moon hoax films or any of the fake moon landing photos on aulis, etc. Instead they rely on mainstream media and that they must avoid alternative news to be good and obedient citizens. It really should be enough to see the press conference right after the first moon landing, where the three astronauts should have danced around the room of joy just for having survived the round trip despite all the radiation impact and other risks, but instead they looked like their favorite dog just died. Surprisingly, they could not even remember if they could see any stars on their trip or not. Michael Collins claimed he could not remember seeing any stars at all (contrary to Neil Armstrong’s claim), but later in his book he mentioned all the beautiful stars he could see.

Bible verses showing the Hebrew verb raqa and the Hebrew noun raqia

The English word ”firmament” is based on the Latin word firmamentum, used in the Vulgate and this term in turn is derived from the Latin root firmus – a cognate with ”firm”. It is a Latinization of the Greek stereōma which appears in the Septuagint version of the Bible.

The original Hebrew noun in the Old Testament is raqia (Strong’s 7549) and can be translated as an extended surface or expanse. Bluletterbible also offers ”a visible arch of the sky”. This noun is used 17 times in the KJV.   

The corresponding Hebrew verb raqa (Strong’s 7554) could be translated into: to beat, beat out, stamp, hammer and spread out thinly, like the process of making a dish by hammering thin a lump of metal. This verb is used 11 times in the KJV.

Let us start with the Bible verses with the verb form, so that we can easier understand what the noun might mean thanks to the details. The most interesting verse is Job 37:18 which could be translated as God beating out the skies as strong as metal. 

Can you, with Him, spread out the skies, Strong as a molten mirror? (NASB)

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror? (ESV)

Below, the verb use in the KJV This verb is for example used when we read about beating gold into thin plates, plates being made broad to cover an altar, goldsmiths spreading out gold over graven images, silver spread into plates, and God stretching out the earth (most importantly, when he spreads out the sky which is strong as molten looking-glass).

Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

Ex. 39:3 And they did beat the gold into thin plates, and cut it into wires, to work it in the blue, and in the purple, and in the scarlet, and in the fine linen, with cunning work.

Num. 16:39 And Eleazar the priest took the brasen censers, wherewith they that were burnt had offered; and they were made broad plates for a covering of the altar:

2 Sam. 22:41 Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies, that I might destroy them that hate me.— 43 Then did I beat them as small as the dust of the earth, I did stamp them as the mire of the street, and did spread them abroad.

Ps. 136:6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Is. 40:19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.

Is. 42:5 5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein

Is. 44:24 24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Jer. 10:9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.

Ez. 6:11 Thus saith the Lord God; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel! for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Ez. 25:6 For thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel

Below, the noun use in the KJV – this noun is for example used to show something visible, solid, with a certain color (crystal) and brightness, and strong enough to hold water above it. There is water both below this firmament (on the earth) as well as above. We know from films of stars that they indeed look like they are placed behind a layer of water. The firmament is also called ”heaven” but is specifically explained as ”the firmament of the heaven”. The celestial bodies (the lights) are placed in this firmament and not above it. The lights are there specifically to give light upon the earth, and to be used as signs for the inhabitants of the earth. The birds were created to fly in the open firmament of heaven”. Based on psalms, this firmament is still in existence to show the glory of God. The firmament is stretched forth over our heads and Ezekiel describes the firmament to be rather near, because the odd-looking creatures with wings will be close by this firmament with their voices heard from it. The context of Ezekiel requires a literal vault or dome.

Gen. 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.— 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Ps. 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Ps. 150:1 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

Ez. 1:15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.— 22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. 23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

Ez. 10:1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Dan. 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Other versesearth

Other equivalent verses about the firmament which looks like a tabernacle or tent. A rotating globe circling around the sun naturally does not need a ”foundation”, nor any pillars to stand on. Spreading out the firmament/vault/tabernacle as a tent over the earth, for the inhabitants to dwell in, would be hard to imagine on a ball.

Is. 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: 

Job 9:1 Then Job answered and said —6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south. 

Job  36:29 Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?30 Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea.

Job 38:44 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?— 13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. 

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. 

Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Psalm 148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.” 

Stars can fall from the skies according to Daniel 8:10 and Matthew 24:29, as well as Revelations.

Rev. 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 1And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb

Rev: 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Ps. 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

If one star let alone all the stars in the sky fell on the earth, no one would be able to either hide or speak since the earth would burn up long before this happened.

The book of Enoch – a flat earth bookflat earth 5

Numerous manuscripts of 1 Enoch have  been found in Ethiopian monasteries, and they have also been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran. The book of Enoch and the book of Jasher are both quoted in the Bible. This means that we should not view the text lightly, but rather with the assumption that they likely contain valid descriptions of our past.

The punishment of the fallen angels described in 2 Peter seems to resemble the book of Enoch, as does much of the wording in Revelation. The Epistle of Jude does not only reveal that Genesis should be taken literally (Enoch is in the 7th generation from Adam), but also supports the book of Enoch when it comes to the punishment of the angels – even if the book of Enoch contains many more details. By attributing prophecy to Enoch, Jude gives much support to the validity of his book.

Jude 14 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.—And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The book of Enoch contains too many descriptions of the sun, moon, stars and angels, etc, to cover here, but here are some quotes:

1 Enoch 1:1. The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. 2. And he took up his parable and said–Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.

1 Enoch 18:1. I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation and the firm foundations of the earth. 2. And I saw the corner-stone of the earth: I saw the four winds which bear [ the earth and ] the firmament of the heaven. 3. And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars of the heaven . 4. I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and all the stars to their setting. 5. I saw the winds on the earth carrying the clouds: I saw the paths of the angels. I saw at the end of the earth the firmament of the heaven above. —9. And I saw a flaming fire. And beyond these mountains 10. is a region the end of the great earth:there the heavens were completed.  — 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 

1 Enoch 21:1. And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. 2. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. 4. Then I said: ‘For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?’ 5. Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: ‘Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6. These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.’ 7. And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. 8. Then I said: ‘How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!’ 9. Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: ‘Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?’ And I answered: ‘Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.’ 10. And he said unto me: ‘This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.’

1 Enoch 33:2. And to the east of those beasts I saw the ends of the earth whereon the heaven rests, and the portals of the heaven open. 3. And I saw how the stars of heaven come forth, and I counted the portals out of which they proceed, and wrote down all their outlets, of each individual star by itself, according to their number and their names, their courses and their positions, and their times and their months, as Uriel the holy angel who was with me showed me. 

1 Enoch 72:2-5. This is the first commandment of the luminaries: The sun is a luminary whose egress is an opening of heaven, which is (located) in the direction of the east, and whose ingress is (another) opening of heaven, (located) in the west. I saw six openings through which the sun rises and six openings through which it sets. The moon also rises and sets through the same openings, and they are guided by the stars; together with those whom they lead, they are six in the east and six in the west heaven. All of them (are arranged) one after another in a constant order. There are many windows (both) to the right and the left of these openings. First there goes out the great light whose name is the sun; its roundness is like the roundness of the sky; and it is totally filled with light and heat. The chariot in which it ascends is (driven by) the blowing wind. The sun sets in the sky (in the west) and returns by the northeast in order to go to the east; it is guided so that it shall reach the eastern gate and shine in the face of the sky,

According to this description, stars that rise and set do so through openings in the dome, just like the sun and moon. Enoch describes the sun and the moon as being of the same size. Most stars belong in certain star constellations, but there are also wandering stars who do not follow the order. They are the ones which have transgressed the commandments of God because they do not arrive punctually (1 Enoch 18:14-15). Like the Bible, 1 Enoch typically depicts stars, and the ”sons of God” as living, anthropomorphic beings. This is consistent with Job 38:7, which says that when the earth’s cornerstone was laid “the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted aloud.”

Also King David describes the sun as a male, and just like Enoch and David too speaks about chambers, running a race, etc:

Ps. 19: 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Job  9:1 Then Job answered and said,2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?— 6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.

FE 4No need to fear the flat earth movement and their arguments

The last thing that Satan would do is to push people straight into the arms of God, but this is exactly what the flat earth movement is doing. For this reason there is no reason to be upset with people who have come to the conclusion that the earth if flat based on the Biblical information (others have of course come to this conclusion regardless of the Bible), and who do what they can to refute Big Bang, Evolution, heliocentrism, a global earth, etc. If they are wrong, it is better to explain why and present better arguments. Satan does not even want people to believe in God in the first place, so flat-earthers are certainly not his best friends. Not all flat earthers are Christians, but they still inadvertently highlight the existence of a Creator and that the earth, with its inhabitants, is the absolute center of his creation and with everything revolving around it. This is far from the naturalistic and materialistic world – with no room for a Creator – which we are brought up to believe in.

The Bible explains that our Creator can be detected through his creation, by the things that are made. Naturally then Satan would like to do all he can to hide this divine creation from the people of the earth, and he also offers other an alternative which does not require a Creator to start with.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the THINGS that are MADE, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Satan’s presentation of our existence includes Big Bang and Evolution in order to deceive people to turn their backs on a Creator, but heliocentrism is also a piece of this puzzle (and the idea that the earth is a planet among other planets) since it reduces the earth into a tiny little speck circling the sun in a vast universe which likely contains more ”earths” with living creatures since the earth is far from unique. This in turn reduces human being into brief parentheses in time, with no purpose, without a God who loves them, with no value whatsoever and particularly with no future. In Satan’s world, the earth is far from placed in the center, but is rather mere dust which came about by chance.

The Biblical creation account is the exact opposite. In the Bible we can read that the earth is the center of God’s world, is his footstool, hangs on nothing, is immovable, is placed on four pillars, human beings on it are the crown of his creation, has a firmament/dome/vault/arch over it which is stretched out like a tent to dwell in, stars are small enough to fall on earth, etc. Flat-earthers would even say that the Bible straight out says that the earth is flat.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 

The word ”breadth” above is a description of the shape of the earth, and not certain parts of the earth. The word is a translation from the noun πλάτος/platos, Strong’s 4114, which means broad, something stretched out, flat, wide, like a street, sometimes interpreted as ”broad plain” = NASB. The adjective is πλατύς, Strong’s 4116, which can be used as a description of a street. The origin comes from the verb πλάσσω/plassó, Strong’s 4111, which can be defined as ”forming/spreading/flattening out”. NE provides the information that it is connected to the French word plateau, of platel, which is a flat object.  

This is no proof for that the earth is flat, but rather that the Biblical authors believed it was. If you want to learn why people believe in the flat earth, I recommend Mark Sargent’s Flat earth clues or the youtube channel ”Celebrate truth” (the latter from a Christian perspective).

PLANETS in the creation account, wandering STARS, fallen angels – Jude 13

amos 5”Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; WANDERING STARS, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever” (Jude 13)

”Wandering” derives from the Greek word πλανήτης (planétés, Strong’s 4107), and is only used in the Bible in Jude 1:13, where we can read about wandering stars. About this word we can read in Biblehub that it derives from the verb πλανάω (Strong’s 4105) with the meaning of leading astray, deceive, wander or cause to wander. It can signify a star that is wandering (a planet), and in a figurative sense it could mean a false teacher exploiting other aimless people leading them to go astray.

This is naturally where the English word ”planet” is taken from, and is a word which we can also recognize in numerous other languages (with minor differences in spelling).

Many have asked why planets are not mentioned in the Bible, but only the earth, the sun and the moon. Should they not get a mention? If the planets are included in ”stars” they are already mentioned. The Bible seems to refer to the planets as wandering stars in Jude 13. Most stars are not wandering at all but are fixed in their places (many of them existing in certain star constellations which can be seen throughout the earth), but certain stars are considered to be wandering.

Apart from the earth (which is naturally described by itself in the creation account) the planets (the wandering stars) are seven in number just like our weekdays.

Amos 5:8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name:

The above could of course signify an open star cluster called the Pleiades (the seven sisters), in the constellation of Taurus. It is the cluster most obvious to the naked eye in the sky. Orion is, like Taurus, a star constellation. Maybe it could also refer to the seven wandering stars.

Gen. 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.—14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Fallen angels

The Bible mentions angels which kept not their first estate but left their own habitation. Jude also compared with the unnatural way that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha lived their life with sexual perversion (homosexuality):

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude refers to Enoch as ”seventh from Adam”, showing that he understood the history in Genesis as being literal (Enoch is indeed the seventh generation from Adam). Jude had no reason to doubt that the description of the sons of God (angels) was literal as well:

Gen. 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Also the book of Enoch and the book of Jasher confirm this story and provide even more details.

The sun (or the stars) were not needed to illuminate the earth the first 3 days (the sun was created on Day 4), and we know from the book of Revelation that the lamb of God (Jesus) will be the one to give us light in the new Jerusalem.

Satan, a beautiful star

Satan, a beautiful star, fell from heaven due to his rebellion. Now he walks about trying to deceive people.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, WALKETH ABOUT, seeking whom he may devour

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (also Job 2:1-2) 

The prince of Tyrus and the prince of the air (Satan) show a similar life pattern as can be seen below. Satan was a bright star:

Ez. 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:—  12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

According to Christian flat earth supporters, they believe the stars are smaller and closer to earth, placed in (not above) the firmament. If the stars were larger, they could not have fallen down to earth but would have caused the earth to burn up long before approaching:

Rev: 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Ps. 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

The book of Enoch explains that seven particular stars, who were disobedient to God, will receive a terrible punishment in the future:

1 Enoch 21:1. And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. 2. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. 4. Then I said: ‘For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?’ 5. Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: ‘Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6. These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.’ 7. And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. 8. Then I said: ‘How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!’ 9. Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: ‘Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?’ And I answered: ‘Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.’ 10. And he said unto me: ‘This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.’

Why do stars twinkle? It actually looks like they are placed in a layer of water.God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament:—And God said, Let there be lights IN the firmament of the heaven.”

Stars as they are, without using CGI the way NASA does:

How globe earthers should not communicate with flat earth believers

FE”Always be ready to give a DEFENSE to everyone WHO ASKS you a reason for the hope that is in you, with MEEKNESS and fear” 1 Pet. 3:15  (NKJV)

The flat earth movement is getting increasingly more popular, and this means that it is logical to take an interest in the subject – to find out why people believe in a flat earth. (Whereas others for some reason get angry at people who do so.) Especially if there is someone out there who believes flat earthers are not even saved due to their incorrect view of the shape of the earth. Unfortunately many globe earthers engage in flat earth discussions with the completely wrong attitude, which leads to that they are wasting their time and make the flat earthers even more confident that they are on the right track. Why else would the globe earthers make so little effort to prove their arguments wrong but resort to demeaning remarks? Is that all they can do? The only way to convince the flat earthers that they are in error, is to study what they believe and debunk those arguments. If you are not able to do so (because you only superficially understand their model and make the wrong assumptions) then it is a lot wiser to remain as a person just asking questions. You will not gain anything by raising up straw man arguments – debating something that no one believes.

Please do not get mad at people who honestly believe something! Sure, they might be in error, but if they have investigated something and are TRULY convinced that it is true, why being upset about it? Would it be better if they lied and denied what they believe, like saying one thing with their mouths and another thing in their hearts? Do you want to scare them into silence? If you manage to scare them into silence, then you will of course not help them out of their errors, but they will continue to believe as before but they will not share their thoughts with you. If they are wrong, is it not better to have a mature conversation about it and get them on the right track? Would Jesus Christ really ridicule and patronize people who honestly believed something is true? Would that behavior convince them that they are wrong? Jesus took the time to explain why the pharisees were in error. When Jesus met the woman at the well, he did not get mad, or raise his voice, or jump up and down, but he explained to her how she could turn her life around for the better. Paul had many discussions with misinformed people.

There are two common reasons to be interested in the flat earth movement that I have noticed. I can say from the start that I belong to the first group:

  1. Since the flat earth idea has become so popular, it is interesting to find out how the flat earth model works and which arguments flat earthers use to support their theories (and which arguments they use to disregard the globe earth). For example, how do they explain the fact that it is possible to circumnavigate the earth? If I have plans to make claims that the flat earth theory does not work, then it would be dishonest if I did not first made sure to understand the theory I am complaining about. I would like to treat others they way I would like to be treated myself. If I do not even know how their theory works, I lack enough knowledge to debunk them.
  2. The other alternative: Since the flat earth theory (which I know almost nothing about) is wrong, I would like to explain to the lost person why it is easily debunked. I will therefore not waste my time by watching flat earth videos, but rather videos which debunk the flat earth (from their opponents). IF I choose to watch a flat earth video, it better be short and I would make sure to have pen and paper handy in order to list things I am about to debunk. That would be my only reason for watching it, and to be able to say ”Yes, I’ve watched flat earth videos, and I therefore know all about their model”. What is presented about the flat earth model in those videos (from the opponents), that IS what the flat earthers believe! Of course I can trust the flat earthers’ opponents to get it right.

The four seasons occur when the sun’s rotations over the earth follow circular paths, going from tighter to wider. This will explain both the constant tropical climate and the midnight sun.

Below are some common mistakes which globe earthers make in their discussions:

Demeaning and patronizing remarksearth 7  

Globe earthers do not seem to understand that all flat earthers used to be globe earthers. As globe earthers, they had the exact same sentiments and used the same arguments which present day globe earthers use. It is therefore a total waste of time to use excessive descriptions about how ignorant, fooled and deceived those are who believe in a flat earth. They already know this is how you feel! They used to feel the same way! They used to have the very same arguments! It would not help in the least if you compared them with mormons, Jehovah’s witnesses, muslims, etc and spent time explaining in detail how easily fooled they are. Again, they already know this is how you feel! You can write page after page with explanations about how deceived and confused they are, because you will still get nowhere. Your information is not new to them. They would only say ”been there, done that”. Adjectives such as ridiculous, absurd, insane, horrid, stupid, foolish, awful, laughable, childish, preposterous, unbelievable, etc, mean nothing to them even if you add several exclamation marks, add several ”lol:s”  and scream tin-foil hats and kooks after them. You are wasting your time. Please note that many (or most, or maybe even all …) of them started to check out flat earth videos in order to debunk them and get examples of  how deceived flat earthers are, and instead they were converted themselves. Not because they like conspiracy theories (they might hate them), but because they felt the facts point to a flat earth and away from a globe earth.

”The flat earthers know better”!

Maybe the most important thing to remember about the flat earthers is this:
They TRULY believe the earth is flat! People might say that they of course already know this, but the same people might still claim that the flat earthers ”know better” than believing in their theory and ”deep in their hearts they know they are wrong”. So make up your mind now. Do you believe that the flat earthers truly believe in the flat earth model, or do you believe that they do not truly believe it after all? Does it matter? Yes, it matters a great deal, because the first option means they still deserve respect, and the other option means the opposite. The first option means that the flat earthers speak the truth about what they believe, and the other option means they are liars and purposely spread falsehood. If you purposely spread a theory which you KNOW is erroneous and fake, this is indeed to cause confusion – as in lying. How then can such a person be a saved Christian? Does not this mean that you cannot be a flat earther and a Christian at the same time? Surely God would have told us in the Bible that it is not enough to repent, believe in Jesus Christ and follow his commandments, but that you must also believe in the correct form of the earth in order to be saved?

If a globe earther does not believe that flat earthers believe in their own theory, he/she is deeply mistaken. Flat earthers (unless they claim otherwise) are convinced about their theory and TRULY believe it is true. It is rather disrespectful to not even trust that people  believe whatever they claim they believe in. Why the doubt? This does not mean they are right about their model, but it means that they likely know better than you do what they themselves believe and why they believe it. If they are wrong, then just explain why by using proper facts and arguments. Can you do this without understanding their model? If you make false assumptions about their model, the conversation might deteriorate because of you. Flat earthers will not be persuaded by patronizing remarks, but they might be persuaded by facts.

”Conspiracy theorists are intentionally LOOKING for ways to turn an official story into a conspiracy theory and are PLEASED to find conspiracies. They are NOT interested in looking for ways to see if the official story might work!”

A statement like the above is a great way to close doors for communication and obstruct a meaningful conversation. I personally know a lot of conspiracy theorists (truth seekers), but I know of no one who is looking for conspiracies. I find that the complete OPPOSITE is true. They absolutely H A T E conspiracies, and the first step they take is to see if they can find ways to save the official story – in order to not end up with yet another government story that does not fit the evidence. Non-conspiracists might reason: ”Since these people believe in multiple conspiracy theories and refuse to budge, this means they love to turn official stories into conspiracy theories just for the joy of it”. What about the opposite alternative, that they do everything they can to save the official story but fail to do so since the facts refuse to cooperate?

If a story does not work due to anomalies (like steel beams turning into dust for no reason) and strange coincidences (like the coroner’s presence at the Sandy Hook school hours before the arrival of the shooter), then unfortunately a person will naturally start to believe that the official story is a lie and that there is a conspiracy. He might investigate the matter even further and find even more anomalies, impossibilities and lies. What is stupid about siding with the facts?

Could it be the Globe earthers who are far more interested in debunking the flat earth theory, than understanding the theory?

Many globe earthers are way more interested in DEBUNKING the flat earth theory than DOING RESEARCH about the flat earth theory to see how it works. This means that the globe earthers have not made their homework and it will be extremely difficult to have a conversation. The flat earther knows about BOTH theories, and the globe earther only knows about ONE theory. The confusion deepens when the globe earther does not even understand his/her lack of knowledge.

A conversation could still run smoothly if the globe earther chooses to ask questions, because no previous knowledge is required for asking questions. Unfortunately many globe earthers work in the exact opposite way. They start off sticking their chins out by making brave claims that they know ”everything there is to know” about the flat earth, or that they know it ”very well”, or that they have ”studied it thoroughly for years”, or similar. Still, many might not even know how a flat earth map looks like! They want to debunk the theory and think they can do this convincingly without studying it.

Learning about the flat earth model through their opponents

Globe earthers often link to videos which supposedly debunk the flat earth, but since the globe earthers avoid flat earth videos as the plague, they do not detect the straw man arguments presented in the globe earth videos. This will make a discussion hard to follow since the flat earther must take his/her time to explain their model to the globe earther who has not done his homework. You can lead the horse to the water, but you cannot make it drink. The safest way to avoid misrepresentations of a model, is to go the source of those who are proponents to that model. Not their enemies! 

Globe earthers often assume that they are the ones with the wider knowledge about the topic (the shape of the earth), but if they have not studied the flat earth model they only know ONE side of the argument and not TWO sides as the flat earthers.

NASA – ”Never A Straight Answer”earth 6

Just about all information about the moon landings and the flat earth comes from NASA. This is ONE source and it is not an objective source. NASA receives billions of dollars every year from American tax payers (like 19,3 billion dollars for the year 2017), and would of course like to display great success in order to continue getting a steady stream of money. It is a good thing to be skeptic about information from NASA because they have proven to be liars, cheaters and green screen lovers. You will also find military and/or free masons in the very top. There are lots of flat earth believers, but there are even more people (me included) who believe the moon landings are fake. Bart Sibrel’s (a Christian man) movie ”A funny thing happened on the way to the moon”, proves that NASA faked half way to the moon and this website shows that the photographs are fake. I can also recommend Jarrah White’s video channel ”Moonfaker” .

Globe earthers should try to understand why flat earthers will not accept NASA as a source.  Not all flat earth arguments must involve NASA, so it is probably easier to focus on those arguments if you want to debunk the flat earth.

Why has no one been to the edge? 

Because they have been to the edge. The edge = Antarctica. Globe earthers would save a lot of time if they read about the Antarctic treaty and about admiral Richard Byrd as well as his expeditions to Antarctica. No one is allowed to go anywhere near Antarctica without authorized company, and if anyone tries he/she will be shot.

How could all NASA employees and other millions of people keep such a secret?

This is a very common question, and if the globe earthers had studied the flat earth, they would know that the flat earthers do not believe that a lot of NASA employees are aware of either a faked moon landing or a flat earth (particularly not the latter). They rather believe that only a few people in the very top of certain affected organisations would know about it, and they are likely tied to the military (or CIA) and have signed secrecy agreements. For example, think about the famous films/pictures of the control center i Houston, in 1969, where loads of people can be seen in front of their screens (or elsewhere) screaming and shouting. How many of them would know that the moon landing was a hoax? None of them would have to know.

Why would not some of the insiders disclose their findings? Likely because they are military and/or free masons, but some do disclose it. But who would they really tell, and who would believe them and spread it further? A newspaper? And the reporters on that newspaper would immediately start to write about it? Of course not. Others have spread the news, or intended to spread the news, and suddenly died very young in suicides or sudden accidents.

The flat earth theory highlights a trustworthy Bible which means what it saysfootstool

Some globe earthers claim the flat earth theory is of Satan because it is causing confusion and deception. I am not afraid of the flat earth theory at all, because it promotes a trustworthy Bible – which Satan would never do. The flat earthers often highlight that the the Bible means what it says when it comes to the creation order (the earth before the sun), the description of the sun, moon, stars and the firmament, but also the various details provided about the earth. The earth is described as being stationary (does not move…), placed on pillars, having four corners earth 8.jpgand with a dome over it like a tent – where we are living under and inside the firmament/tent. The earth is also described as being God’s footstool. Naturally it would not be a literal footstool but if the earth looked like a ball, the analogy would not make any sense whatsoever. On the other hand, a flat earth, with four pillars beneath it and four corners, would look precisely as a footstool. There is a Hebrew word for ”ball” which is not used in the Bible when it comes to describing the earth, but the word for ”circle” is used. Joshua’s long day, where both the sun and the moon are claimed to stand still, does not make any sense in a heliocentric model, but makes perfect sense in a geocentric model. Again, flat earthers often point out that we can trust the Bible exactly as it says, from beginning to end, and this is the opposite of what Satan would do. Satan would try to lead us away from the Bible by fooling us to believe that the Bible contains multiple anomalies and things that do not fit the reality. Satan is responsible for popularizing the Evolution theory, and there are still Christians (old earth creationists) who try to combine a billions of years old earth with the Bible.

The other day I happened to see a person (Person 1 below) who entered a flat earth thread on Facebook and spent several posts in describing how important it was to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He explained that it was his discovery of the flat earth which made him think harder and realized that the earth is way too unique to not have a creator, etc. Even if the concept of a flat earth is naturally not the only reason for believing in God, for some people it can still be the catalyst to think twice about the big bang, Evolution, billions of years, earth being a tiny speck in the vast universe, life on other planets, etc.

Person 1: when I finally found it it blew my being to pieces and shattered all my preconceived ideas. But it took a personal encounter and I had to get to the end of myself to be willing to give it a go. That was way way back in time but I havent walked away from it since…..

Person 2: when I found out about the flat earth that was a rollercoaster ride for me mentality lol going from a atheist to believing a creator, I definitely don’t rule out the bible not at all, it’s early days for me iv only been a flat earther for a year

Person 3: i was atheist before coming to FE

I have seen many similar confessions, and that is why I am not at all afraid of the flat earth movement. The devil would not help out promoting a trustworthy Bible nor move us closer to a Creator, but he would do the exact opposite.

”They have answers for everything!”mark twain.jpg

When it comes to conspiracy theories in general, it is actually the official story believers who always have answers (excuses) for everything. They are ready to excuse lie after lie coming from the government (or NASA), and they will excuse any anomaly there is even if they really have no valid solution to a known problem. Just like a muslim who is ready to defend their prophet no matter what he has done. Why did WTC7 decide to fall at free fall speed for no reason? How come the fall was announced 22 minutes before it fell? Why did the plane at Pentagon and the one in Pennsylvania leave any trace of either luggage och passengers? Why so many cell phone calls from the planes, when such connections have proven to be absolutely impossible? The excuses might go:

”There simply must be a valid reason even if it is not known … The government wouldn’t lie to us … That would be just too absurd …”, etc

conspiracyIf you do not even believe the moon landings are fake, or that 9/11 is an inside job, you will likely not be able to understand flat earthers

You would be too far apart. If you believe man has been on the moon, it is better that you start with this issue before you engage yourself in a flat earth discussion.

Can you explain why portable toilets and refreshments were ordered to the Sandy Hook school before the day of the shooting? You might ask ”What are you talking about? I’ve never heard of that!”, and that is the point. Always remember that the conspiracy theorist knows about TWO sides of the story (the official one and the conspiracy) whereas you only know about the official one. YOU lack in knowledge. Not the conspiracy theorist.

There are too many false flag events to study in depth, but I have studied numerous by reading books, articles and watched/listened to youtube films. Some might claim it is a waste of valuable time, but I have managed to cover a lot of information through listening to my ipod when I am out running, and my night shift job also enables me to study. On the other hand I do not wast my time watching football …

I have encountered Christians who are upset (angry) when they understand that I do not swallow the official story of 9/11 (for example) and they lack in patience. They might on one hand ask me to prove a conspiracy, but on the other hand refuse to go through any of information/links I provide which can provide answers. It is like they want me to prove a conspiracy in five sentences and if I am not able to do that then they ”won” and my view is deemed as incorrect. I certainly do not open all links myself that I receive from others, but I would if I am the one starting out with the claim that there is no proof for something.

Kan man bevisa att jorden är PLATT, eller en rund glob? Och vad säger Bibeln?

 

platt jord.jpgDen kristna attityden inför människor som har avvikande åsikter

Flat-earth-filmer (innehållande platt-jord-argument) längre ner i artikeln.

Läs gärna artikeln ”Lista med 50 exempel som bevisar att jorden är platt. Varför tvivlar folk på ett jordklot?”

För att ge ett exempel på ett av många problem som människor har gällande globteorin skulle man kunna nämna kampen att hitta jordens krökning, och varför då inte ta Rob Skibas experiment som exempel. NASA har nämligen bara producerat det berömda Blue Marble fotot från 1972, och det finns anledningar att betvivla äktheten.

Människor som bor mitt emot Chicaco på andra sidan Lake Michigan, ska inte kunna se staden pga jordens krökning. Det är nämligen drygt 80 km från Chicago till kusten på andra sidan sjön, och staden ska därför befinna sig gott och väl under horisonten. Problemet är att man KAN se Chicago på det här avståndet (inte bara taken på de högsta skyskraporna), även om det vissa dagar krävs att man kommer närmare staden för att kunna se den pga dimma. En meterolog förklarade fenomenet med att det handlade om en hägring (för staden ska inte kunna gå att se på 80 kms håll!), men Rob visar genom sin båtfärd att det inte handlar om en hägring. Han och övriga båtpassagerare kunde se Chicago från 74 km avstånd på sin båttur, och staden blev allt mer tydligare ju närmare staden de kom. Vidare är detta inte ett unikt problem, eftersom det finns hur många exempel som helst på liknande vittnesmål vad gäller andra synobjekt. Det är bara att googla eller kolla på youtube.

Den här artikeln handlar mer om människors ATTITYD gentemot människor som tror på en platt jord. En mer detaljerad text om jordens form enligt Bibeln finner du i denna artikel. (Jordens form enligt Bibeln och Enoks bok – platt med hörnpelare och himlavalv.)

Det verkar vara mer populärt än någonsin att tro att jorden är platt. Hur ska man bemöta sådana udda åsikter? Ur en kristen utgångspunkt så borde man kunna behärska sig och försöka acceptera att det finns människor som inte delar ens åsikter – samt passa på att framföra bättre argument. Man kanske skulle kunna tycka att detta är en självklarhet med respekt och självbehärskning men jag har personligen träffat på kristna som visat upp en hatisk sida när de träffat på en annan medtroende som haft udda åsikter och vid mötet gett sig själva rätten att håna, hota, förlöjliga och t o m blockera samt förtala. M.a.o. har de agerat helt tvärt emot kärleksbudet; att älska Gud över allting och sin nästa som sig själv. I stället för att kärlekslöst kasta ut en syster/broder i mörkret så skulle de kunnat ta sig tid att samtala med personen och förklara varför denne misstagit sig. Framför allt om dessa kristna anser att den avvikande åsikten är så fruktansvärd att den gör personen ofrälst, för då då har man alltså en förlorad person framför sig som man har chansen att omvända om man orkar föra en vuxen dialog.

Nedan verser handlar visserligen om den tålmodiga kampen att övertyga människor om evangeliet, men de visar även på att vi borde vara beredda att försöka undanröja alla hinder som står i vägen mellan människor och sanningen. Detta gör vi genom att förmedla bättre argument, och på liknande sätt skulle vi kunna resonera om vi menar att människor är helt fel ute gällande andra ämnen. Exempelvis finns människor som inte förmår ta till sig Bibelns undervisning eftersom de felaktigt fått för sig att Bibeln har fel redan på första sidan där det framkommer att allting skapades på 6 dagar. Då är det inte säkert att de blir hjälpta av att vi viftar bort problemet och ber dem att tänka på annat. De flesta sanningssökare vill förmodligen i det läget få denna hopplösa knut löst, och då är framförande av bättre argument det bästa knepet. (Vad gäller kreationism rekommenderar jag http://www.genesis.nu.) Notera tålmodigheten i verserna nedan (framför allt Paulus tålmodighet):

2 Kor. 10:4 De vapen vi strider med är inte svaga utan har makt inför Gud att bryta ner fästen. Ja, vi bryter ner tankebyggnader 5 och allt högt som reser sig upp mot kunskapen om Gud. Och vi gör varje tanke till en lydig fånge hos Kristus 

1 Petrus 3:15 — Var ALLTID beredda att SVARA VAR OCH EN som begär att ni FÖRKLARAR det hopp ni äger

Jak. 5:19 Mina bröder, om någon bland er kommer bort från sanningen och någon för honom tillbaka, 20 så skall denne veta att den som återför en syndare från hans villoväg frälser hans själ från döden och överskyler många synder.

Apg. 17:17 Han samtalade nu i synagogan med judarna och med dem som fruktade Gud och dessutom varje dag på torget med dem som han träffade där. 18 Även en del filosofer, både epikureer och stoiker, diskuterade med honom och en del sade: ”Vad kan den där pratmakaren vilja säga?” Andra sade: ”Han tycks vara en som förkunnar främmande gudar.” Detta sade de, eftersom han predikade evangeliet om Jesus och uppståndelsen.

Apg. 28:23 De bestämde en dag för honom, och då kom ännu fler till hans bostad. För dem förkunnade han Guds rike och vittnade om det, och han försökte ÖVERTYGA dem om Jesus, både utifrån Mose lag och profeterna. Och det höll han på med från morgonen ända till kvällen24 Somliga lät sig övertygas av hans ord, men andra ville inte tro.

Apg. 19:Sedan gick han in i synagogan och under tre månader PREDIKADE han frimodigt. Han samtalade med dem och försökte övertyga dem om det som hör till Guds rike. Men där fanns några som förhärdade sig och inte ville tro utan talade illa om ‘den vägen’, så att alla hörde det. Då lämnade han dem och tog lärjungarna med sig, och varje dag HÖLL HAN SAMTAL i Tyrannus hörsal.10 Detta pågick under två år, så att alla som bodde i Asien, judar och greker, fick höra Herrens ord.

Paulus verkar alltså inte vara typen som blir arg när han stöter på människor som har genuina, men felaktiga, övertygelser i sina hjärtan utan han försöker i stället att resonera och diskutera.

Något som är helt bortkastat är att försöka få en person med en viss övertygelse att helt enkelt upphöra med denna övertygelse (utan att ens ha bemödat sig med att ge bättre argument mer än att den andra har FEL), och att i princip be personen LJUGA om sina egna övertygelser. Om personen inte går med på att avvika från sin fasta övertygelse (eftersom han/hon inte vill ljuga inför Gud) så kan vissa kristna totalt tappa fattningen och kalla personen både det ena och det andra. Jag vet eftersom jag varit med om det. Att exempelvis be någon ”Sluta att tro att 9/11 är en false flag attack!”, är alltså lättare sagt än gjort om personen faktiskt tror det motsatta. Ska personen ljuga om sina egna åsikter? Återigen är det bästa botemedlet inte hån, tystnad eller ilska utan snarare att lösa knutar och komma med bättre argument. Men en del tror att de gör en Guds gärning genom att frysa ut den som tror fel... Utgå ifrån att det inte är personen med den avvikande åsikten som är för lite påläst i ämnet utan DU. (Det betyder dock inte att den som är mest påläst automatiskt har rätt.)

De som tror på en platt jord har kommit till denna slutsats beroende på artiklar, böcker, filmer, konversationer, eller dylikt. Källmaterialet kan givetvis vara vinklat och ha fel, men sanningen är ändå att personerna tror som de gör. Detta bör respekteras! (Att respektera är inte detsamma som att hålla med.) Dessa personer är inte terrorister, mördare eller pedofiler som borde baktalas eller bestraffas. De tror bara att jorden är platt. Många av dem kanske önskar att de trodde på en glob som alla andra.

Argument för en platt jord?

Min första reaktion när jag insåg att det finns folk idag som tror på en platt jord, var min fundering på hur de löser problemet med att folk faktiskt transporterat sig från kontinent till kontinent, runt, runt i cirklar? Är inte detta det bästa beviset på att jorden måste vara en glob? Eller är de hur ologiska som helst? När jag sedan fick se deras jordmodell så var jag tvungen att erkänna att man precis lika lätt kan transportera sig runt mellan kontinenter enligt deras modell som med globmodellen (men definitivt inte flyga hela vägen över Antarktis till andra sidan). Min andra spontana invändning mot en platt jord gällde det här med att man kan betrakta båtar som försvinner över horisonten och där överdelen försvinner sist ur betraktarens ögon snarare än aktern. Även detta argument var jag tvungen att överge när jag kunde se filmbevis på att det inte fungerar på det sättet i verkligheten, och att ämnet snarare används av plattjordanhängarna som ett argument för deras egen sak – samt att man kan se en lång rad riktmärken över stora avstånd som egentligen inte ska kunna gå att se pga jordens rundning. Vidare kan de inte acceptera jordklotsfoton som bevis för en glob eftersom dessa härrör sig från NASA och de har i stort sett erkänt att fotona är konstruerade genom CGI. Detta är exempel på konkreta argument (finns fler i filmerna nedan), så vill du vinna över människor till din sida så är det just sådana argument du måste lösa åt dem snarare än att säga ”tro inte så dumt!”.

De som ansvarar för websidan Creation.com gjorde ett försök att en gång för alla motbevisa att jorden är platt, men tyvärr så valde skribenten att inte först undersöka vad anhängarna faktiskt tror. Det innebär att skribenten argumenterade via halmgubbar – att kämpa mot åsikter som anhängarna inte sagt sig ha. När det gäller att bryta ner falska och undermåliga argument måste man börja med att studera vilka argumenten är som man tänkt sig bekämpa. Creation.com är duktiga på att studera allt som har med evolutionsläran att göra, och när författarna sedan skriver sina artiklar med motbevis så kan de vara stolta över att de inte förvrängt motståndarnas åsikter utan baserar sina motargument just på evolutionisternas egna dokumenterade argument. Tyvärr gick de ifrån det konceptet när de producerade artikeln om en platt jord.

Så vad ledde då artikeln till? De som redan innan var övertygade plattjordmotståndare fortsätter förstås att vara det, och om några plattjordanhängare läste artikeln så kan jag tänka mig att de blev ännu mer övertygade om att de själva har rätt eftersom författaren inte lyckades knäcka deras argument. Författaren lyckades säkert bra med att knäcka argument som ingen sagt sig ha (halmgubbar), men inte argumenten som sanna plattjordanhängare använder sig utav. Därmed skulle slutsatsen kunna bli, från de sistnämndas sida, att de anser sig besitta lysande argument för annars skulle väl någon motbevisa dem? Artikeln var alltså inte till någon som helst hjälp för någon, och gjorde bara avgrunden mellan de olika åsikterna ännu större. Om någon befinner sig i gränslandet så får den personen ingen hjälp av artikeln att vända ryggen till tron på en platt jord, eftersom argumenten för en platt jord inte berördes och därför lever vidare intakta.

Det finns en organisation som heter The flat earth society. De är inte trovärdiga. Det kanske du redan visste, men visste du att de inte ens är trovärdiga bland sanna plattjordanhängare? De sistnämnda anser att denna organisations målsättning är att förvirra och förvärra situationen för plattjordanhängarna, och de som arbetar för organisationen anses vara s.k. ”shills” och motståndare. För att vara ärlig i sin kamp att motbevisa att jorden är platt så borde man därför basera sitt resonemang på de bästa websidorna, youtubefilmerna eller organisationerna som står till buds och som har störst anseende bland anhängarna själva. På liknande sätt borde kreationister som vill motbevisa evolutionsteorin använda sig utav de främsta evolutionskällorna – vilket också görs.

Vill du veta hur människor som tror på en platt jord resonerar? Se en film eller två!

Jag har tyckt att det varit oerhört intressant att lyssna/se på plattjordfilmer. Man får lära sig en hel del om Antarktis, GPS-systemet, månens dragningskraft, midnattssol, polstjärnan, etc. Att bevisa att jorden är en glob och roterar är inte så lätt som man skulle kunna tro. Nedan korta film är från globanhängare och visar hur jorden både roterar och rusar genom rymden under sin färd runt solen. Plattjordanhängare har svårt att tro på detta (och att stjärnkonstellationer under hela resan aldrig förlorar sina positioner), i kombination med att de kräver att se någon form av bevis för jordens rundning. (Det finns även några som officiellt erbjudit stora summor pengar till någon som kan ge dem bevis.) Vidare är de inte nöjda med att kontinenter på jordklotet presenteras med så drastiskt olika storlekar beroende på glob/karta (ibland är Grönlands dimension nästan lika stort som Afrika, ibland pyttelitet, etc). Själva erkänner de gärna att de är osäkra på exaktheten hos kontinenters dimensioner och placering, men brukar oftast basera sina exempel på den s.k. Gleasons karta.

Ett stort skäl att folk börjat tro på en platt jord är proffsiga youtubefilmer som börjat dyka upp de senaste åren. Den första är av Eric Dubay, och om det endast är en enda film som du kan tänka dig att se så måste jag nog rekommendera denna film – trots att jag verkligen inte delar hans  livssyn och trosuppfattning. Argumenten som presenteras i filmen är korta och lättförståeliga, och vill man gå in på detaljer så får man alltså leta upp andra filmer (hans egna eller andra) för att studera mer. Lyckligtvis håller sig Eric till ämnet i denna film och vi slipper även svordomar. Eftersom filmen är indelad i 200 korta argument så är det lätt att bromsa filmen där det passar och fortsätta vid ett annat tillfälle.

Här nedan kommer Mark Sargent‘s film som är väldigt berömd:

Vidare vill jag även visa en film från Jeran Campanella (från hans kanal jeranism).

Liksom i ”globkretsen” så har man inom ”plattjordkretsen” olika trosuppfattningar och åsikter. Var alltså noga med att inte dra alla över en kam. Alla dessa tre killar har producerat en mängd andra filmer på sina youtubekanaler, och många är intressanta oavsett om man tror på en platt eller rund jord. Samtliga har gjort egna undersökningar och experiment om jorden som de visar upp i filmform. Det gäller även Rob Skiba, som har en kristen tro (men heller ingen person som jag kan säga att jag håller med). Du kan söka på youtube för att komma till hans kanal, och där kan du söka upp de filmer som berör just jordens form. Ett annat namn är Brian Mullin som har rätt bakgrund för att göra intressanta experiment på sin youtubekanal. Bland plattjordanhängare finns agnostiker, kristna och andra religioner representerade. Det verkar däremot inte finnas några renodlade ateister – kanske för att det är svårt att vara ateist samtidigt som man tror att jorden är fullständigt unik och uppvisar storartad design.

De flesta av dessa filmmakare uppmanar ivrigt folk att korrigera deras matematik eller resonemang så att de kan rätta till eventuella felaktigheter. Det handlar inte om falska uppmaningar, utan dessa personer vill verkligen bli korrigerade om de misstagit sig och presenterat något som inte stämmer med fakta. Det vanligaste problemet är att människor kritiserar resonemang och slutsatser baserade på halmgubbar. Kritikerna har alltså varit för snabba med sin kritik då de inte tagit sig tid att studera plattjordanhängarnas modell.

Att tro att månlandningarna var en bluff går utmärkt att göra utan att behöva tro att jorden är platt (men omvänt går förstås inte). Väldigt få människor behöver ha känt till bluffen. Exempelvis så behövde ingen av de mängder av människor i Houston ha känt till att det som utspelade sig på deras dataskärmar inte handlade om verklig data. Jag kan verkligen rekommendera Bart Sibrels film ”A funny thing happened on the way to the moon” i ämnet, och han bevisar t o m med hur man bluffar med att komma halvvägs till månen. Se gärna fejkade månfoton från denna websida. Bart är kristen och sätter sin tro främst i sitt liv, men jag kan också rekommendera att du söker upp Jarrah White på youtube (Moonfaker) eller webben, trots att han är ateist. Hans material om månlandningen är proffsig. Vi har även fotografen Marcus Allen som påvisar en rad anomalier vad gäller månfoton i denna film. Ingen av dessa nämnda tror att jorden är platt. Däremot att månlandningarna var en bluff, och jag håller verkligen med.

Vad säger Bibeln om jordens form och placering?

Här följer slutligen några verser från Bibeln (utan kommentarer) om jordens rund, det separerande himlavalvet som stjärnorna placerades i, pelarna som jorden placerats på, etc. Jag kan även rekommendera Enoks bok för att se fler detaljer (som inte motsätter Bibelns information.)

1 Mos. 1:1 I begynnelsen skapade Gud himmel och jord. 2 Jorden var öde och tom, och mörker var över djupet. Och Guds Ande svävade över vattnet.3 Gud sade: ”Varde ljus!” Och det blev ljus. 4 Gud såg att ljuset var gott, och han skilde ljuset från mörkret. 5 Gud kallade ljuset dag, och mörkret kallade han natt. Och det blev afton och det blev morgon. Det var den första dagen.6 Gud sade: ”Varde mitt i vattnet ett valv som skiljer vatten från vatten!” Gud gjorde valvet och skilde vattnet under valvet från vattnet ovan valvet. Och det skedde så. Gud kallade valvet himmel. Och det blev afton och det blev morgon. Det var den andra dagen.9 Gud sade: ”Vattnet under himlen skall samlas till en enda plats så att det torra blir synligt.” Och det skedde så. 14 Gud sade: ”Varde på himlavalvet ljus som skiljer dagen från natten!” De skall vara tecken som utmärker särskilda tider, dagar och år, 15 och de skall vara ljus på himlavalvet som lyser över jorden.” Och det skedde så. 16 Gud gjorde de två stora ljusen, det större att härska över dagen och det mindre att härska över natten, likaså stjärnorna. 17 Han satte dem på himlavalvet till att lysa över jorden, 18 till att härska över dagen och natten och till att skilja ljuset från mörkret. Och Gud såg att det var gott. 

Job 9:6 han som får jorden att vackla från sin plats och dess PELARE att bäva,7 han som befaller solen att inte gå upp och förseglar stjärnorna,8 han som ensam spänner ut himlarna
och skrider fram över havets rygg, 9 han som har gjort Karlavagnen och Orion, Sjustjärnorna
och söderns stjärnbilder

Job 22:12 Bor inte Gud i himlens höjd? Och se på stjärnorna däruppe, hur högt de sitter!
13 Och du säger: ”Vad kan Gud veta? Kan han döma genom detta töcken?14 Molnen bildar en slöja så att han inte ser, och på himlavalvet vandrar han.”

Job 26:7 Han spänner ut himlen i norr över det tomma, han hänger upp jorden på intet.
8 Han samlar upp vatten i sina moln, och skyarna brister inte under bördan.9 Han gömmer sin tron för vår åsyn, han höljer den med sina skyar.10 En välvd horisont har han satt över vattnen, där ljuset gränsar mot mörkret.11 Himlens pelare skälver, de häpnar över hans bestraffningar.

Job 28:24 Ty han skådar till jordens ändar, han ser allting under himlen.

Job 37:3 Han sänder ut det över hela himlen, sina blixtar till jordens ändar.18 Kan du, med honom, breda ut skyarna som ett valv, fast som en spegel av gjuten metall?

Job 38:4 Var fanns du när jag lade jordens grundSvara, om du har så stort förstånd.5 Vem har bestämt hennes mått – du vet! Och vem spände mätsnöret över den?6 Var fick hennes grundpelare sina fästen? Vem lade hennes hörnsten,—12 Har du, sedan dina dagar började,befallt dagen att gryoch anvisat morgonrodnaden en plats13 där den kunde fatta jorden i dess hörn,så att de ogudaktiga skakades bort från den?

Psalm 18:16 Vattnens bäddar kom i dagen, jordens grundvalar blev synliga för din näpst, Herre, för din vredes stormvind.

Psalm 19:1 Himlarna vittnar om Guds härlighet, himlavalvet förkunnar hans händers verk.—3 Den ena dagen talar om det för den andra, den ena natten kungör det för den andra,4 utan tal och utan ord, deras röst hörs inte. 5 De når ut över hela jorden, deras ord når till världens ände. Åt solen har han gjort en hydda i dem, 6 den är som en brudgum som går ut ur sin kammare, den gläder sig som en hjälte att löpa sin banaDen går upp vid himlens ena ände
och går sin kretsgång till den andra. Ingenting undgår dess hetta.

Psalm 75:4 Jorden och alla som bor där kan vackla, men jag har gjort dess pelare stadiga.” Sela.

Psalm 93:1 Herren är konung! Han har klätt sig i höghet. Herren har klätt sig och rustat sig med makt. Därför står världen fast, den vacklar inte.

Psalm 96:10 Säg bland folken: ” Herren är konung! Därför står världen fast och vacklar inte.
Han dömer folken med rättvisa.”

Psalm 104:2 Insvept i ljus som i en mantel, spänner du ut himlen som ett tält.3 Du timrar på vattnen dina salar, molnen gör du till din vagn, du far på vindens vingar.—5 Du grundade jorden på dess fästen, så att den ej vacklar till evig tid.6 Med djupet täckte du den som med en klädnad, upp över bergen stod vattnen.

Psalm 136:6 han som har brett ut jorden över vattnenty hans nåd varar i evighet, 7 han som har gjort de stora ljusen, ty hans nåd varar i evighet,8 solen till att råda om dagen,  ty hans nåd varar i evighet,månen och stjärnorna till att råda om natten, ty hans nåd varar i evighet

Ords. 8: 27 När han beredde himmelen, var jag tillstädes, när han spände ett valv över djupet,28 när han fäste skyarna i höjden, när djupets källor bröto fram med makt (1917) (27 — drew a circle on the face of the deep, NKJV)

Jesaja 11:12 Han skall resa ett baner för hednafolken och samla de fördrivna av Israel och de kringspridda av Juda från jordens fyra hörn.

Jesaja 13:10 Ty himlens stjärnor och stjärnbilder sänder inte mer sitt ljus. Solen går upp mörk, och månens ljus lyser inte.1—13 Därför skall jag få himlen att darra, och jorden att gunga och skaka i sina grundvalar -genom Herren Sebaots förbittring, på hans brinnande vredes dag. (10. — the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, KJV)

Jesaja 38:8 Se, jag skall låta skuggan på trappstegen gå tillbaka de tio steg som den har flyttat sig på Ahas trappa med solen.Solen gick då tillbaka tio av de steg på trappan som den redan hade gått.

Jesaja 40:22 Han är den som tronar över jordens rund, och dess inbyggare äro såsom gräshoppor; han är den som utbreder himmelen såsom ett flor och spänner ut den såsom ett tält att bo inunder. (1917) (sitteth upon the circle of the earthKJV)

Jesaja 43:6 Jag skall säga till länderna i norr: ”Ge hit!” och till södern: ”Håll dem inte tillbaka! För hit mina söner fjärran ifrån och mina döttrar från jordens ände

Jesaja 44:24 Så säger Herren, din återlösare, han som format dig alltifrån moderlivet:
Jag, Herren, är den som har gjort allt, den som ensam har spänt ut himlen och brett ut jorden Vem var med mig?

Jesaja 45:12 Det är jag som har gjort jorden och skapat människorna på den. Det är mina händer som har spänt ut himlen, och hela dess här har jag givit befallning.

Jesaja 48:13 Min hand har lagt jordens grund, min högra hand har spänt ut himlen. Jag kallade på dem, då stod de där.

Jesaja 66:1 Så säger Herren: Himlen är min tron och jorden min FOTAPALL. Vad för ett hus kanfootstool.jpg ni bygga åt mig, vad för en plats där jag kan vila?

Hesekiel 1:26 Ovanför valvet över deras huvuden syntes något som liknade en tron gjord av safirsten. På det som liknade en tron satt en gestalt som såg ut som en människa.

Amos 9:6 Det är han som bygger sin sal i himlen och har grundat sitt valv över jordenHan kallar på havets vatten och sprider ut det över jordens yta – Herren är hans namn. (face of the earth, KJV)

1 Samuel 2:8 Han reser den ringe upp ur stoftet, ur dyn lyfter han upp den fattige för att sätta honom bland furstar. Ja, han låter honom ärva härlighetens tron. Ty jordens grundpelare är Herrens, och på dem har han byggt världen.

2 Samuel 22:16 Havets bäddar kom i dagen, jordens grundvalar blev synliga, genom Herrens näpst,  för hans vredes stormvind.

1 Krön. 16:30 tillbed Herren i helig skrud. Bäva inför honom, alla länder. Jorden står fast, den kan inte rubbas.

Daniel 4:7 Detta var den syn jag hade på min bädd: Jag såg i min syn ett träd stå mitt på jorden, och det var mycket högt. 8 Trädet var stort och väldigt och så högt att det räckte upp till himlen och syntes till jordens ände. 9 Lövverket var vackert och trädet bar mycket frukt så att det hade föda åt alla. Markens djur fann skugga under det och himlens fåglar bodde på grenarna. Allt levande fick sin mat från det.

Predikaren 1:5 Solen går upp och solen går ner och skyndar sedan åter till den plats
där den går upp.6 Vinden far mot söder och vänder sig mot norr. Den vänder sig ständigt på sin färd fram och börjar sitt kretslopp på nytt.

Matteus 4:8 Därefter tog djävulen honom upp på ett mycket högt berg och visade honom alla riken i världen och deras härlighet. 9 Och han sade: ”Allt detta vill jag ge dig, om du faller ner och tillber mig.”

Matteus 24:31 Med starkt basunljud skall han sända ut sina änglar, och de skall samla hans utvalda från de fyra väderstrecken, från himlens ena ända till den andra.

Upp.1:7 Se, han kommer med molnen, och varje öga skall se honom, även de som har genomborrat honom, och alla jordens stammar skall jämra sig över honom. Ja, amen.

Upp. 6:13 Himlens stjärnor föll ner på jorden, som när ett fikonträd fäller sina omogna frukter, när det skakas.

Upp. 7:1 Sedan såg jag fyra änglar stå vid jordens fyra hörn och hålla tillbaka jordens fyra vindar, så att ingen vind skulle blåsa över jorden eller över havet eller mot något träd. 

Upp. 20: 8 Och han skall gå ut för att bedra folken vid jordens fyra hörn, Gog och Magog, och samla dem till striden, och deras antal är som sanden i havet.

Joshua 10:12 På den dagen då Herren gav amoreerna i israeliternas våld, talade Josua till Herren inför hela Israel: ”Du sol, stå stilla i Gibeon, du måne, i Ajalons dal!”13 Och solen stod stilla och månen blev stående, till dess folket hämnats på sina fiender. Detta står skrivet i ”Den redliges bok”. Solen blev stående mitt på himlen och gjorde sig ingen brådska att gå ner för att fullborda dagen. 

Habakkuk 3:11 Sol och måne står stilla i sin boning vid skenet av dina pilar som far fram, vid glansen av ditt blixtrande spjut.12 I förbittring går du fram över jorden, i vrede trampar du ner hednafolken.