Tag Archive | christian

Jesus was not against organized religion according to the Bible

church 4”Organized religion” could be a church gathering with certain basic rules

Sometimes believers try to justify their separation from other Christians, as well as church meetings, with the idea that Jesus was against organized religion. The Bible says no such thing.

During the time of the apostles Christians often met in their homes, which makes sense since they could not always take over Jewish synagogues and start having assemblies there (but sometimes they did). The climate is usually very warm in the Middle East and this means that people often could gather outside, like on top of their buildings to make room for more people. Where I live (Sweden) it is a totally different matter, and it is a huge advantage if Christians have access to a large building in order to assemble several families who can worship together in a practical way. Hence, the idea of a large building with the very suitable name ”church” – since the building is supposed to be a place where Christian believers assemble. ἐκκλησία (ekklesia, Strong’s 1577) is often translated church and could mean an ”assembly of believers”. (An assembly of Christian believers or a church building are not necessarily Babylon ….)

Naturally a certain amount of rules must be implemented in order for everyone to have a pleasant time together in their worship. The Bible (particularly the book of Acts), gives us some details how such meetings could work out and why they are even needed. A church meeting (an assembly with Christians) provides a chance for everyone to hear sermons (from a pastor), to sing worship songs together, to hear prophesies, to get healed, to edify each other, etc. These things must logically be made in a certain order to avoid total chaos.

It is true that Christ is in our midst if 2-3 persons gather in his name, but 1) let us at least do that, and 2) this does not diminish the importance of having Christian assemblies with even more believers.

Matt. 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them

1 Cor. 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.

Some Bible verses about gathering with Christians under structured conditions

It may not be a salvational matter to assemble with other Christians (and sometimes it is not even possible or preferable for various reasons), but it can be very edifying both for you and others. Maybe you believe that you know best anyway so why let some pastors speak and hold sermons you might disagree with? In that case, maybe you can enlighten fellow lost believers (like after the sermon in order to not disturb the peace). Or perhaps you are the one who needs to be enlightened after all. If you are only willing to attend a church meeting where you agree with the pastor about everything, then you will have to continue spending your Sundays alone. A church meeting is not solely there due to the sermons, but in order to have fellowship with other Christians, to sing worship songs together, etc.

Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching  

Below we get advice for church meetings:

Ja. 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool

Ja. 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The ”laying on of hands” means to officially confirm a qualified person as an elder, which is an important task done by another elder. This is indeed ”organized religion”, and if everyone had obeyed Paul’s advice in selecting elders all would be well. Unfortunately Paul himself knew that there would be believers who would deviate from his teaching rather soon.

Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:—7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;—9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 

1 Tim. 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Below we can read about ”organized religion” in the book of Acts. 

Acts 2:41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and FELLOWSHIP, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles44And all that believed WERE TOGETHER, and had all things COMMON; 45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the TEMPLE, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

We can see above that Christians had fellowship with each other in the same place. Notice that 3000 people were saved and added to them the day in question. Baptism and breaking bread with others could not be possible unless Christians assembled together. Neither would signs and wonders have a large impact on people unless they were seen by others. Christians did not abandon the temple, even though they could of course assemble also in their homes.

When Paul was out travelling, he knew there were Christian assemblies that he could meet up with. We can see below that believers met together during a certain day and time, were taught in the temple and in homes, we can read about structured purifications and offerings,

Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into the TEMPLE at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.

Acts 4:1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the TEMPLE, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

Acts 4:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, 20Go, stand and speak in the TEMPLE to the people all the words of this life.

Acts 4:42 And daily in the TEMPLE, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20And straightway he preached Christ in the SYNAGOGES, that he is the Son of God.— 26And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple. 

Acts 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. 5And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the SYNAGOGES of the Jews: and they had also JOHN TO THEIR MINISTER.-–14But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the SYNAGOGUE on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15And after the reading of the law and the prophets the RULERS of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and BRETHREN, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.–

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the SYNAGOGUE, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium that together they both went into the SYNAGOGUE of the Jews, and so spoke that a great multitude of both the Jews and also of the GREEKS believed.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the SYNAGOGUE every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the GREEKS.— 7And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man’s house, named Justus, one that worshipped God,whose house joined hard to the synagogue.8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a SYNAGOGUE of the Jews:2And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,—10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.—-17Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the SYNAGOGUE, and reasoned with the Jews. —22And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up, and saluted the church, he went down to Antioch.— 26And he began to speak boldly in the SYNAGOGUE: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: 28For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,—8And he went into the SYNAGOGUE, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. 9But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. 10And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.— 

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the TEMPLE, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. 27And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the TEMPLE, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

Acts 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the TEMPLE, I was in a trance;18And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. 19And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every SYNAGOGUE them that believed on thee:

Acts 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship. 12And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:—18Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the TEMPLE, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.

church9Church (ekklesia) is sometimes used in CONTRAST to a group of individual believers!

1 Tim. 5:3 Honour widows that are widows indeed. 4But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God. — 9Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man. 10Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work. 11But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;—16If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church (ekklesia) be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. 17Let the ELDERS (presbyteroi) that rule well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.—19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Above, Paul gives instructions to the assembly of christians (the church) concerning the treatment of widows, and he advised them to preferably take care of their own family members (like widows) rather than having the church providing for them. In that way the church could focus on those with the most urgent needs. Apparently taking care of widows was one of many functions that the church had during this time. Paul also provided regulations concerning treatments of church elders, again indicating that christian meetings were ”organized”.

3 John 1:6 Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well: — 9I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

The man Diotrephes refused to receive the brethren and he even cast them out of the CHURCH. So the true brethren are mentioned in contrast with the Church. The wicked person (in the church) cast them out of the church.

Acts 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church (ekklesian), and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.—

If we can never say ”I’m going to church” because we as christians are always the church wherever we go, then neither does the above verse make any sense. Here we can read that Paul, Barnabas etc were ”received” by the church. It is better to receive godly men into church, instead of casting them out as Diotrephes did.

1 Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.2Now I praise you, brethren,that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. —4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.—16But if any man seem to be contentious, WE have no such custom, NEITHER the churches of God. 17Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18For first of all, when ye come together in the churchI hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifestamong you20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. 21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.—30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.—33Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 34And if any man hunger, let him eat at homethat ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

Above Paul contrasts (differentiates) ”we” with ”the church”. He is also talking about ”when ye come together in the Church”, which sounds like a physical place. Paul takes for granted that we are going away when we ”come together in the church” because he complains about people who take the chance to eat a lot of food while being in the church. Paul asks ”have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?” and ”if any man hunger, let him eat AT HOME”.

1 Cor. 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands AT HOME: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Paul says above women should be silent in a teaching situation in church (not when it comes to singing, making prophesies, translating tongues, etc) and in this instance he is speaking of a certain place (away from home) and not a metaphor for believing people because he then gives permission for them to speak at home.

1 Cor.16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.— 15I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,) 16That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth. 17I am glad of the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied. 18For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.19The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house. 

2 Cor 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.—  19And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:— 

We are supposed to be the body of Christ, which means many members with many gifts and talents. God has set some in the church (the body of Christian members) to be apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. Paul speaks about the importance to use the spiritual gifts in a certain order – in an organized way.

1 Cor. 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.— 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Cor. 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.— So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.— 11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. —16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.—  23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 

Here is a similar article about the same topic.

How globe earthers should not communicate with flat earth believers

FE”Always be ready to give a DEFENSE to everyone WHO ASKS you a reason for the hope that is in you, with MEEKNESS and fear” 1 Pet. 3:15  (NKJV)

The flat earth movement is getting increasingly more popular, and this means that it is logical to take an interest in the subject – to find out why people believe in a flat earth. (Whereas others for some reason get angry at people who do so.) Especially if there is someone out there who believes flat earthers are not even saved due to their incorrect view of the shape of the earth. Unfortunately many globe earthers engage in flat earth discussions with the completely wrong attitude, which leads to that they are wasting their time and make the flat earthers even more confident that they are on the right track. Why else would the globe earthers make so little effort to prove their arguments wrong but resort to demeaning remarks? Is that all they can do? The only way to convince the flat earthers that they are in error, is to study what they believe and debunk those arguments. If you are not able to do so (because you only superficially understand their model and make the wrong assumptions) then it is a lot wiser to remain as a person just asking questions. You will not gain anything by raising up straw man arguments – debating something that no one believes.

Please do not get mad at people who honestly believe something! Sure, they might be in error, but if they have investigated something and are TRULY convinced that it is true, why being upset about it? Would it be better if they lied and denied what they believe, like saying one thing with their mouths and another thing in their hearts? Do you want to scare them into silence? If you manage to scare them into silence, then you will of course not help them out of their errors, but they will continue to believe as before but they will not share their thoughts with you. If they are wrong, is it not better to have a mature conversation about it and get them on the right track? Would Jesus Christ really ridicule and patronize people who honestly believed something is true? Would that behavior convince them that they are wrong? Jesus took the time to explain why the pharisees were in error. When Jesus met the woman at the well, he did not get mad, or raise his voice, or jump up and down, but he explained to her how she could turn her life around for the better. Paul had many discussions with misinformed people.

There are two common reasons to be interested in the flat earth movement that I have noticed. I can say from the start that I belong to the first group:

  1. Since the flat earth idea has become so popular, it is interesting to find out how the flat earth model works and which arguments flat earthers use to support their theories (and which arguments they use to disregard the globe earth). For example, how do they explain the fact that it is possible to circumnavigate the earth? If I have plans to make claims that the flat earth theory does not work, then it would be dishonest if I did not first made sure to understand the theory I am complaining about. I would like to treat others they way I would like to be treated myself. If I do not even know how their theory works, I lack enough knowledge to debunk them.
  2. The other alternative: Since the flat earth theory (which I know almost nothing about) is wrong, I would like to explain to the lost person why it is easily debunked. I will therefore not waste my time by watching flat earth videos, but rather videos which debunk the flat earth (from their opponents). IF I choose to watch a flat earth video, it better be short and I would make sure to have pen and paper handy in order to list things I am about to debunk. That would be my only reason for watching it, and to be able to say ”Yes, I’ve watched flat earth videos, and I therefore know all about their model”. What is presented about the flat earth model in those videos (from the opponents), that IS what the flat earthers believe! Of course I can trust the flat earthers’ opponents to get it right.

The four seasons occur when the sun’s rotations over the earth follow circular paths, going from tighter to wider. This will explain both the constant tropical climate and the midnight sun.

Below are some common mistakes which globe earthers make in their discussions:

Demeaning and patronizing remarksearth 7  

Globe earthers do not seem to understand that all flat earthers used to be globe earthers. As globe earthers, they had the exact same sentiments and used the same arguments which present day globe earthers use. It is therefore a total waste of time to use excessive descriptions about how ignorant, fooled and deceived those are who believe in a flat earth. They already know this is how you feel! They used to feel the same way! They used to have the very same arguments! It would not help in the least if you compared them with mormons, Jehovah’s witnesses, muslims, etc and spent time explaining in detail how easily fooled they are. Again, they already know this is how you feel! You can write page after page with explanations about how deceived and confused they are, because you will still get nowhere. Your information is not new to them. They would only say ”been there, done that”. Adjectives such as ridiculous, absurd, insane, horrid, stupid, foolish, awful, laughable, childish, preposterous, unbelievable, etc, mean nothing to them even if you add several exclamation marks, add several ”lol:s”  and scream tin-foil hats and kooks after them. You are wasting your time. Please note that many (or most, or maybe even all …) of them started to check out flat earth videos in order to debunk them and get examples of  how deceived flat earthers are, and instead they were converted themselves. Not because they like conspiracy theories (they might hate them), but because they felt the facts point to a flat earth and away from a globe earth.

”The flat earthers know better”!

Maybe the most important thing to remember about the flat earthers is this:
They TRULY believe the earth is flat! People might say that they of course already know this, but the same people might still claim that the flat earthers ”know better” than believing in their theory and ”deep in their hearts they know they are wrong”. So make up your mind now. Do you believe that the flat earthers truly believe in the flat earth model, or do you believe that they do not truly believe it after all? Does it matter? Yes, it matters a great deal, because the first option means they still deserve respect, and the other option means the opposite. The first option means that the flat earthers speak the truth about what they believe, and the other option means they are liars and purposely spread falsehood. If you purposely spread a theory which you KNOW is erroneous and fake, this is indeed to cause confusion – as in lying. How then can such a person be a saved Christian? Does not this mean that you cannot be a flat earther and a Christian at the same time? Surely God would have told us in the Bible that it is not enough to repent, believe in Jesus Christ and follow his commandments, but that you must also believe in the correct form of the earth in order to be saved?

If a globe earther does not believe that flat earthers believe in their own theory, he/she is deeply mistaken. Flat earthers (unless they claim otherwise) are convinced about their theory and TRULY believe it is true. It is rather disrespectful to not even trust that people  believe whatever they claim they believe in. Why the doubt? This does not mean they are right about their model, but it means that they likely know better than you do what they themselves believe and why they believe it. If they are wrong, then just explain why by using proper facts and arguments. Can you do this without understanding their model? If you make false assumptions about their model, the conversation might deteriorate because of you. Flat earthers will not be persuaded by patronizing remarks, but they might be persuaded by facts.

”Conspiracy theorists are intentionally LOOKING for ways to turn an official story into a conspiracy theory and are PLEASED to find conspiracies. They are NOT interested in looking for ways to see if the official story might work!”

A statement like the above is a great way to close doors for communication and obstruct a meaningful conversation. I personally know a lot of conspiracy theorists (truth seekers), but I know of no one who is looking for conspiracies. I find that the complete OPPOSITE is true. They absolutely H A T E conspiracies, and the first step they take is to see if they can find ways to save the official story – in order to not end up with yet another government story that does not fit the evidence. Non-conspiracists might reason: ”Since these people believe in multiple conspiracy theories and refuse to budge, this means they love to turn official stories into conspiracy theories just for the joy of it”. What about the opposite alternative, that they do everything they can to save the official story but fail to do so since the facts refuse to cooperate?

If a story does not work due to anomalies (like steel beams turning into dust for no reason) and strange coincidences (like the coroner’s presence at the Sandy Hook school hours before the arrival of the shooter), then unfortunately a person will naturally start to believe that the official story is a lie and that there is a conspiracy. He might investigate the matter even further and find even more anomalies, impossibilities and lies. What is stupid about siding with the facts?

Could it be the Globe earthers who are far more interested in debunking the flat earth theory, than understanding the theory?

Many globe earthers are way more interested in DEBUNKING the flat earth theory than DOING RESEARCH about the flat earth theory to see how it works. This means that the globe earthers have not made their homework and it will be extremely difficult to have a conversation. The flat earther knows about BOTH theories, and the globe earther only knows about ONE theory. The confusion deepens when the globe earther does not even understand his/her lack of knowledge.

A conversation could still run smoothly if the globe earther chooses to ask questions, because no previous knowledge is required for asking questions. Unfortunately many globe earthers work in the exact opposite way. They start off sticking their chins out by making brave claims that they know ”everything there is to know” about the flat earth, or that they know it ”very well”, or that they have ”studied it thoroughly for years”, or similar. Still, many might not even know how a flat earth map looks like! They want to debunk the theory and think they can do this convincingly without studying it.

Learning about the flat earth model through their opponents

Globe earthers often link to videos which supposedly debunk the flat earth, but since the globe earthers avoid flat earth videos as the plague, they do not detect the straw man arguments presented in the globe earth videos. This will make a discussion hard to follow since the flat earther must take his/her time to explain their model to the globe earther who has not done his homework. You can lead the horse to the water, but you cannot make it drink. The safest way to avoid misrepresentations of a model, is to go the source of those who are proponents to that model. Not their enemies! 

Globe earthers often assume that they are the ones with the wider knowledge about the topic (the shape of the earth), but if they have not studied the flat earth model they only know ONE side of the argument and not TWO sides as the flat earthers.

NASA – ”Never A Straight Answer”earth 6

Just about all information about the moon landings and the flat earth comes from NASA. This is ONE source and it is not an objective source. NASA receives billions of dollars every year from American tax payers (like 19,3 billion dollars for the year 2017), and would of course like to display great success in order to continue getting a steady stream of money. It is a good thing to be skeptic about information from NASA because they have proven to be liars, cheaters and green screen lovers. You will also find military and/or free masons in the very top. There are lots of flat earth believers, but there are even more people (me included) who believe the moon landings are fake. Bart Sibrel’s (a Christian man) movie ”A funny thing happened on the way to the moon”, proves that NASA faked half way to the moon and this website shows that the photographs are fake. I can also recommend Jarrah White’s video channel ”Moonfaker” .

Globe earthers should try to understand why flat earthers will not accept NASA as a source.  Not all flat earth arguments must involve NASA, so it is probably easier to focus on those arguments if you want to debunk the flat earth.

Why has no one been to the edge? 

Because they have been to the edge. The edge = Antarctica. Globe earthers would save a lot of time if they read about the Antarctic treaty and about admiral Richard Byrd as well as his expeditions to Antarctica. No one is allowed to go anywhere near Antarctica without authorized company, and if anyone tries he/she will be shot.

How could all NASA employees and other millions of people keep such a secret?

This is a very common question, and if the globe earthers had studied the flat earth, they would know that the flat earthers do not believe that a lot of NASA employees are aware of either a faked moon landing or a flat earth (particularly not the latter). They rather believe that only a few people in the very top of certain affected organisations would know about it, and they are likely tied to the military (or CIA) and have signed secrecy agreements. For example, think about the famous films/pictures of the control center i Houston, in 1969, where loads of people can be seen in front of their screens (or elsewhere) screaming and shouting. How many of them would know that the moon landing was a hoax? None of them would have to know.

Why would not some of the insiders disclose their findings? Likely because they are military and/or free masons, but some do disclose it. But who would they really tell, and who would believe them and spread it further? A newspaper? And the reporters on that newspaper would immediately start to write about it? Of course not. Others have spread the news, or intended to spread the news, and suddenly died very young in suicides or sudden accidents.

The flat earth theory highlights a trustworthy Bible which means what it saysfootstool

Some globe earthers claim the flat earth theory is of Satan because it is causing confusion and deception. I am not afraid of the flat earth theory at all, because it promotes a trustworthy Bible – which Satan would never do. The flat earthers often highlight that the the Bible means what it says when it comes to the creation order (the earth before the sun), the description of the sun, moon, stars and the firmament, but also the various details provided about the earth. The earth is described as being stationary (does not move…), placed on pillars, having four corners earth 8.jpgand with a dome over it like a tent – where we are living under and inside the firmament/tent. The earth is also described as being God’s footstool. Naturally it would not be a literal footstool but if the earth looked like a ball, the analogy would not make any sense whatsoever. On the other hand, a flat earth, with four pillars beneath it and four corners, would look precisely as a footstool. There is a Hebrew word for ”ball” which is not used in the Bible when it comes to describing the earth, but the word for ”circle” is used. Joshua’s long day, where both the sun and the moon are claimed to stand still, does not make any sense in a heliocentric model, but makes perfect sense in a geocentric model. Again, flat earthers often point out that we can trust the Bible exactly as it says, from beginning to end, and this is the opposite of what Satan would do. Satan would try to lead us away from the Bible by fooling us to believe that the Bible contains multiple anomalies and things that do not fit the reality. Satan is responsible for popularizing the Evolution theory, and there are still Christians (old earth creationists) who try to combine a billions of years old earth with the Bible.

The other day I happened to see a person (Person 1 below) who entered a flat earth thread on Facebook and spent several posts in describing how important it was to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He explained that it was his discovery of the flat earth which made him think harder and realized that the earth is way too unique to not have a creator, etc. Even if the concept of a flat earth is naturally not the only reason for believing in God, for some people it can still be the catalyst to think twice about the big bang, Evolution, billions of years, earth being a tiny speck in the vast universe, life on other planets, etc.

Person 1: when I finally found it it blew my being to pieces and shattered all my preconceived ideas. But it took a personal encounter and I had to get to the end of myself to be willing to give it a go. That was way way back in time but I havent walked away from it since…..

Person 2: when I found out about the flat earth that was a rollercoaster ride for me mentality lol going from a atheist to believing a creator, I definitely don’t rule out the bible not at all, it’s early days for me iv only been a flat earther for a year

Person 3: i was atheist before coming to FE

I have seen many similar confessions, and that is why I am not at all afraid of the flat earth movement. The devil would not help out promoting a trustworthy Bible nor move us closer to a Creator, but he would do the exact opposite.

”They have answers for everything!”mark twain.jpg

When it comes to conspiracy theories in general, it is actually the official story believers who always have answers (excuses) for everything. They are ready to excuse lie after lie coming from the government (or NASA), and they will excuse any anomaly there is even if they really have no valid solution to a known problem. Just like a muslim who is ready to defend their prophet no matter what he has done. Why did WTC7 decide to fall at free fall speed for no reason? How come the fall was announced 22 minutes before it fell? Why did the plane at Pentagon and the one in Pennsylvania leave any trace of either luggage och passengers? Why so many cell phone calls from the planes, when such connections have proven to be absolutely impossible? The excuses might go:

”There simply must be a valid reason even if it is not known … The government wouldn’t lie to us … That would be just too absurd …”, etc

conspiracyIf you do not even believe the moon landings are fake, or that 9/11 is an inside job, you will likely not be able to understand flat earthers

You would be too far apart. If you believe man has been on the moon, it is better that you start with this issue before you engage yourself in a flat earth discussion.

Can you explain why portable toilets and refreshments were ordered to the Sandy Hook school before the day of the shooting? You might ask ”What are you talking about? I’ve never heard of that!”, and that is the point. Always remember that the conspiracy theorist knows about TWO sides of the story (the official one and the conspiracy) whereas you only know about the official one. YOU lack in knowledge. Not the conspiracy theorist.

There are too many false flag events to study in depth, but I have studied numerous by reading books, articles and watched/listened to youtube films. Some might claim it is a waste of valuable time, but I have managed to cover a lot of information through listening to my ipod when I am out running, and my night shift job also enables me to study. On the other hand I do not wast my time watching football …

I have encountered Christians who are upset (angry) when they understand that I do not swallow the official story of 9/11 (for example) and they lack in patience. They might on one hand ask me to prove a conspiracy, but on the other hand refuse to go through any of information/links I provide which can provide answers. It is like they want me to prove a conspiracy in five sentences and if I am not able to do that then they ”won” and my view is deemed as incorrect. I certainly do not open all links myself that I receive from others, but I would if I am the one starting out with the claim that there is no proof for something.

Christianity in Sweden and the fear of Christian Sweden Democrats (SD)

nazi-2Naive Swedes who live in a pretend world

Criminals are dangerous, but so are people who are way too naive for their own good and live in a pretend world. The small Christian community in secular Sweden needs a lot of prayers these days. Churches in Sweden are more or less victims of political correctness and you will even see ”the Swedish state church” making a 2016 Christmas call for us all to get back to the generous immigration laws which applied 2015 and earlier (when Sweden was overwhelmed by about 165,000 asylum seekers – even more than the record numbers previous years). Never mind if we have the means to accommodate that large amount of people or not. When it comes to the serious reality it is not ”the heart that counts”, because God never told us to jump off a cliff and count on him to save us from the problems that we ourselves have caused. The Bible even advises us to not place ourselves in debt if we can avoid it because then we are not really free. A good advice for a household as well as for a whole country, is to not live beyond our means. If we have to borrow money in order to afford our new inhabitants, and raise the world’s highest taxes to an even higher level, then something is wrong. This has nothing to do with skin color.

We will not be able to help anyone if the whole country go bankrupt, and of course it does not make sense to decrease our financial aid to the third world (where people are in desperate need of help and have no chance to collect enough money to pay smugglers who can assist them in getting to Sweden) in order to spend the money mostly on young men who seek asylum in Sweden for economical reasons. We must face the fact that we cannot be a welfare contributor to the entire world and its needs. So far we have pretended as though we can, but what we get in return is a country collapsing under its own burden – and the deterioration is getting increasingly worse. It is truly dangerous to go out at nights in many areas in Sweden, and Malmö might already be a lost city due to the crime statistics and the large amount of people living on welfare (the most common name for newly born boys in Malmö is Mohammed, and Arabic is now the second most common language in Sweden before Finnish.)

We should not blame immigrants for wanting to come to Sweden since we promise milk and honey for them and their families for as long as they live (particularly if they are minors which they are therefore encouraged to be). It is our politicians we should blame – those who have decided to ruin our country by promising more stuff than we can deliver.

We hardly have any national defense left (hence the interest to join NATO and promote globalism), people are fleeing from service jobs in hospitals, schools, the police force, etc due to the heavy work loads and in some cases also a hostile environment. More and more public areas must be protected by guards, like shopping malls, libraries and indoor swimming pools. Every single week you will read about cars set on fire, thefts, shootings, rape/gang rapes and murder. Statistics (and court accounts) show that people from the middle east and northern Africa are over-represented in the crime statistics, and particularly when it comes to the more serious types of crimes. Sweden has about 55 no-go zones (some feel that we should not use these terms because they might be offending to those who live there), and about half of them are too dangerous for the Police and emergency vehicles to enter due to the risk of being stoned or attacked in other ways. Lawlessness has taken over. Policemen are also frustrated to see criminals getting away with crimes in court (if they even get to court), and if they do get a sentence they are soon out on the streets again in a few weeks/months to continue with their crimes. Immigrants are rarely expelled to their home countries. There are examples where immigrants have gang raped a minor and still not been expelled, due to the ”poor treatment” they might expect to get in their home countries.

If you dare questioning multiculturalism and mass immigration, you will most likely be labelled a racist which means that there are people who must keep their deep concern for our country to themselves.

The famous article which caused a lot of division among Christians

There is a certain famous article published in the Christian newspaper DAGEN (and also elsewhere) December 2014, and has been shared and talked about in the Christian community ever since (together with articles and even a book from the same author in the same subject). It’s authored by Stefan Swärd and Sven-Gunnar Hultman, and signed by a large number of pastors and church employees (exactly who can be seen here). What is it about? It is about a warning concerning the political party ”Swedish Democrats” (SD) and consequently also the views by those who vote for this party. The authors point out that it is not possible to be a Sweden Democrat and a Christian at the same time (albeit not in those exact words). They claim SD is all about racism and that the view of man that SD holds is far from Christian as well as extremely distant from the word of Jesus.

I vote for this party together with about 25% (probably more) of the Swedish voters according to polls. Have 1/4th of the Swedish voters suddenly turned racist? Anyone can read what SD stands for on their website and you will not find anything remotely tied to racism, unless you purposely misrepresent the text. SD rightly points out that we are all different depending on our genes, culture, traditions, environment, upbringing, social level, etc, and yet people go ballistic when they read this, being totally convinced that SD promotes racism simply by stating the obvious.

It is quite noteworthy that Stefan Swärd and Micael Grenholm (the authors of a book published 2016 where they lash out against SD and frequently use SD:s opponents as a source) do not write books and articles warning about the Swedish communist party but focus on SD alone. (They must accept that Sweden Democrats might want to defend themselves against their attacks.) They might tell you about scandals made by SD politicians (some are misrepresentations but some scandals are sadly valid) but I could tell them about scandals from politicians from every single Swedish political party. Some of those who hate SD might claim that politicians from SD win the race when it comes to scandals, but when I ask for the statistics they can provide nothing more than examples. Are Norwegians dumber than Swedes if I provide one example of a dumb Norwegian? How about 10 examples, or 20, 40? Come on! Let us not make generalizations if we cannot prove they are actually accurate. What does the Bible say about spreading rumors and falsehood? And about judging others with different weights?

Prov. 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Prov. 3:30 Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm.

Prov. 11:9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

Prov. 20:10 Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the Lord.

Prov. 20:23 Divers weights are an abomination unto the Lord; and a false balance is not good.

Lev. 19:35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

Ex. 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:

Nowhere in the Bible will you read that Israel (or whoever) are obligated to support strangers (and their families and relatives) for the rest of their lives if strangers cross the border and would like to live with you. From the parable of the the good Samaritan we can extract that he helped one person who was almost dying, who he happened to find on his way. The good Samaritan financed this help with his own money which he probably did not have to borrow. He did not promise to finance the other person’s and his family’s living conditions for the rest of their lives – and particularly not with other people’s money.

As a Christian I believe we all derive from the same couple: Adam and Eve, and later on Noah and his wife. I believe this to be the literal truth. We all have the same blood and God doesn’t want anyone to perish. Hence, there is no skin color which is superior than the other.

The article has caused much division in the Swedish Christian communitydivision-2

My point is that this article which spread throughout the Swedish Christian community has done a lot of harm, and it has caused a great division among Christians in Sweden. Christians are separated into the 1) the good Christians who are FOR mass immigration and 2) the bad heartless ”Christians” (the racists) who are against it. So which side are you on?

I have become church less due to this split, and I know of other Christian Sweden Democrats who feel there is a great division in Church. Only one view is allowed, or else you are among ”them” and not ”us”. Three of the pastors in my church signed this document, and it is also quite possible that the Head Pastor might be of the same view (he feels that he should not take side due to his position). Why would I like to continue being a member of a church where so many pastors feel the need to warn other members for people like me? Maybe people will take large circles around me, when they realize that I am a person who vote for the ”prohibited” party which their pastors have officially red flagged. Why would I attend a Church when there is a risk that members and pastors might feel uncomfortable around me, thinking that I am perhaps just as awful as the picture painted in the article? If they have placed me among ”them”, I of course feel I am not included.

If the pastors would like to be consistent, they should not allow SD-voters to be members in their congregations considering that SD-voters are not saved in their view. If they protest and say that they have said no such thing, I must ask them if they truly believe a person is saved if he/she is a racist, has a world view (a view about fellow-man) which is far from Christian and very distant from the word of God (statements from the article which they have signed)? If they suggest that I have misunderstood them, then I can only say that a) why did they sign the document with those clear statements, and b) is it not rather ironic that also SD suffers from being misunderstood – possibly because those who interpret them prefer to go to their enemies to check their views rather than SD themselves. Why going to the source?

In Sweden it seems like only one opinion is allowed at a time, so it is a totally different story compared to our neighboring countries where various views are allowed concerning immigration volumes and consequences. The truth is that SD has similar political views as in all of our Nordic neighbors, so if SD must be labelled a racist party why not the parties that rule in our neighboring countries? Why do not Swärd and Grenholm write books where they warn about Christians in Denmark because of their support for their political systems?

Why the urgent need to judge SD based on the actions of a few members in the beginning of SD existence during a time when most of today’s SD politicians were still teenagers or even children? Who would like to be judged based on predecessors from a long time ago? What if there was a new pastor employed in a church who managed to improve the church greatly by getting it on the right track? What if outsiders still preferred to judge the pastor and the congregation based on previous pastors? Year after year? How much time must elapse before the pastor can be judged based on his own merits and actions? There are still some mishaps in the new church? OK, but what if there are mishaps in ALL churches? It still boils down to the same faulty argument:

”There are scandals made by SD politicians so you can’t vote for SD, because then you’re a racist! OK, there are scandals made also by politicians from all other parties but you’re still fine if you vote for them.”

This is double standard.

It was a HUGE mistake to sign that document, but I pray ”Father, please forgive them, they do not know what they are doing”. This does not change the fact that many christian Sweden Democrats do not feel welcome in Church.

sweden-3Why it makes perfect sense to vote for SD for a Christian

SD critics might believe that voting for SD or not is about helping or not helping people in despair. However, it is rather about different ways of helping. SD prefers to help more people (who need it the most) for less money, but the politics from the other parties are based on helping fewer people in a more expensive way (even if they are not aware of it). No one likes to be ascribed views to him/her that might not be true, and I know better than anyone else why I vote for SD. I vote for SD for a number of reasons, and not one of them is ”because a few of the pioneers in the late 1980’s and beginning of 1990’s were racists”. No, I vote for SD based on what they stand for today. Here are some of my reasons:

  • I prefer to help as many people in need as possible – and particularly those with the most urgent needs with no chance at all to pay smugglers who can bring them to Sweden. By helping people in their own countries more people can be helped for less money. Resulting in that Sweden will not deteriorate as a country and can continue to help people year after year.
  • SD often promotes Christian values in all areas, but particularly in schools where they feel it is beneficial for children to be affected by Biblical values from an early age.
  • SD considers children raised in a traditional nuclear family (one father and one mother) as the most ideal option. SD opposes sanctioned adoption and insemination to single people, same-sex couples and polyamorous relationships unless the adopting party are close relatives or already have a close relationship with the child. 
  • It is the only party that would like to see the right for abortion heavily reduced (as a start until pregnancy week 11 instead of current week 18).
  • It is the only party that criticizes the ”homosex lobby”, and SD is the only party that has no representation in any ”Pride parades”. SD feels that Pride parades promote promiscuity. Pride parades are particularly not safe or beneficial for children.
  • It is a nationalistic and social conservative political party and against globalist movement (not ”far right” as their opponents claim), and I feel it is good to be proud of our own country and to maintain our culture and traditions. Instead we are tiptoeing around new citizens due to the fear that we might offend them with our culture and traditions.
  • It is one of only two parties against a membership of EU (and a world government).
  • It is against a Swedish membership of NATO.
  • It seems to be the only party (except for maybe one more) FOR Israel and for the Jews which can be testified in their governmental legislation work on the behalf of Israel and Israel’s right to protect itself. When Sweden officially declared ”Palestine” as a state, only SD protested heavily and gave the idea absolutely no support.
  • SD is also vocal about the danger of some Islamic traditions, halal food in schools, child weddings, etc.
  • It is the only party that has rightly understood the danger of mass immigration, and Sweden does not have 55 no go zones and a ruined welfare state for no reason at all.
  • They have adopted a policy where they have zero acceptance for racism, and has clearly shown in practice that they do not hesitate to disfellowship members who do not live up to this rule.
  • It is the only political party in the true opposition. Sweden presently has a government to the left and so far it seems like every single decision they have made has been the contrary to what should be done. The other ”opposing” political parties (apart from SD) have united and they enable the left to be in power even though they could arrange a government to the right with the support from SD. It is unfortunate that they prefer to neglect their own voters and see the whole country going down in flames, rather than having something to do with SD which they stigmatize.
  • etc, etc

A christian person outside of Sweden might agree with all of the above and be heartily welcomed into a Church as a brother/sister – because he is not a Swedish Democrat and does not vote for them. So two people might share the very same views, and yet one is called a racist and one is a brother/sister. Again, double standard.

Swedish mainstream media (famous for being so critical against Israel) has decided to treat SD as a party tied to racism/nazism/fascism, and they are constantly on the hunt to find some dirt they can throw on SD. I know numerous people who have lost their jobs, positions in for instance a union or other group associations due to their SD commitments. Those who are responsible for this rejection often justify their actions by claiming that SD does not share the same humanistic view of man as other people. With other words they ascribe views to SD and people who they might not have and use it against them (i.e. a straw man). If the individual explains what his real views are he/she is not believed because of the SD commitment. Sadly many Christians have joined the bullies, and as a Sweden Democrats you must expect to be unfriended both on social media and in real life.

The same value for all! If you’re against it, you’re a racist!

There is a mantra that has been in rule in Sweden for quite some time now which goes   ”Allas lika värde” (the same value for all). Many have already decided that SD opposes this and therefore use it against them (whether it is true or not). It is of course questionable if all people truly have the same value. Does Stalin have the same value as Mother Teresa? If my children had the same value as other children, would I not save money in order to provide more children with a driver’s education and not just my own? And give food, birthday gifts, etc to other children rather than year after year always focusing on my own? No, I have a responsibility to feed my own children and to help them out as much as I can because I set them into this world. I am never exempted from this responsibility as long as they are underage and in my care. I simply cannot help all who are in financial need, so in this aspect my children have a greater value to me than others. This of course does not stop me from also giving aid to others, but it cannot compare to the time and the sums of money that I have spent on my own children over the years.

It is rather ironic that those who shout the most for ”the same value for all” place such a low value on Sweden Democrats who are often treated as third class citizens. Did you know that all political parties are given an invitation to the Nobel prize ceremony every year, apart from SD? It is again due to ”the view of man” that SD supposedly holds, but how come dictators from all over the world are invited? Did you know that owners of hotels, restaurants, etc, either often decline to take any bookings from SD representatives, or cancel the bookings later on when pressured by journalists?

One would think that a pastor would like to see people repenting from their sins and getting saved? So if they declare in a document that Sweden Democrats are distant from the word of God, why do they not take the chance and explain in which way? Please? What is the sin that I should repent from? Due to siding with the views in our neighboring countries and my stance against a harmful mass immigration?

Naturally all human beings are valuable, and naturally God does not want anyone to perish but to come to the knowledge of the truth. There is much joy in heaven for each person who repents.

Contacted by ”Evangelist so-and-so” from India or Pakistan?

 

church 4India and Pakistan replete with evangelists and orphanages?

If you are a Christian who is sometimes engaged in social networks such as Christian forums, chat rooms, blogs, Facebook groups, etc, then you might have been contacted by individuals from India or Pakistan who commonly, but not always, have user names starting with ”Evangelist” or ”Pastor” and who claim to be involved with Christian missions and/or running an orphanage. Considering the amount of times I have been contacted in this way throughout the years, you would think there is a church or orphanage in every street corner in India/Pakistan.

I am not suggesting that all such contacts are fake, but I would advise people to not give financial aid to strangers they meet online (particularly if they are from India/Pakistan – where soliciting seems to be a common problem), and I would advise people from India and Pakistan to not contact strangers in this way since it might give all Christians from India and Pakistan an unwarranted bad name. There are of course sincere Christians from India and Pakistan who are engaged in the very work they claim to be, but since you cannot expect people to know this with certainty it is much better for them to give money to charities that they know and can trust. The best way to help financially is to do so through people who you know personally, or through churches or organizations that you really have confidence in.

The conversations with such Indians/Pakistanis that contact you online always tend to be the same, and they go through the same phases. (I am not suggesting all such individuals have the same interior motives as I describe here below.)

  1. First they make sure I am a Christian – something they probably know in advance since they chose to be contact me in the first place. Christians are supposed to be kind and giving…They might ask you what church you attend, to make sure you are an active Christian.
  2. After the first greetings, they usually start off asking ”What do you do”? This gives me the feeling they want to know if I work, and if there is a chance I even earn a lot of money which I perhaps could spare. If there is such a possibility, it might be worth while chatting with me and becoming friends with me.
  3. They explain they are involved with missionary work and/or run an orphanage. They sometimes ask you if you want to see some photos which they are happy to send to you.
  4. They ask for prayers for their Christian work, due to the many needs.
  5. They express themselves with Christian phrases, they praise God, they repeatedly call you sister (or brother where applicable).
  6. They show an overwhelming interest in your country and in your Church.
  7. They proceed to invite you to India/Pakistan to evangelize, without even knowing anything about you – apart from your claim that you are a Christian. I wonder to myself how they know I am a good preacher and how they can be certain of that I do not teach heresies? When I tell them that I am sure they can spread the gospel in India/Pakistan just as well as I can, they still insist I should come. I explain that I would love to visit their country, but if the idea is that I should pay for costly travels to India/Pakistan surely the money could be spent more wisely on more important things? If I go to India/Pakistan to preach, then someone must translate to their language, so why not preach in the correct language to start with without my participation?
  8. They might even suggest they need evangelists from abroad due to the difficulties they have in their area to arrange Christian meetings considering much persecution, etc. But do they think a random Christian Swedish woman they meet online will sort it out much better? They might have heard about large Christian organizations that have arranged large meetings also in their countries, but what are the chances that I am involved in such ministries? Would it not be better to use google and contact such ministries directly?
  9. If the conversation lasts long enough, they might even more openly ask for money. You might suggest sending them Bibles, but remember that they would prefer money so that they can buy Bibles in their own languages. (With other words – it is more safe to not send any money.)

Again, I know there are well-meaning Christians from India and Pakistan who are not fake at all (some I have spoken with even know the names of some Swedish evangelists) but I still wish they would use another approach online. Each time I get contacted by someone from India/Pakistan, I get a red warning sign from the very first Hello.

My advice is: Please do not ask for financial aid online, and please do not give financial aid online. There are better and safer ways to support Christian projects.

Do not encourage anyone to ask for financial help from people they meet online. If you give money to people who contact you online, this will encourage even more people to do so and naturally also people who are not engaged in any Christian activities at all.

The Muslim view of Jesus, a corrupted Bible, and the great dilemma in the Quran

false gospel

When exactly was the Bible corrupted and where is the evidence for this corruption? Who corrupted it?

According to Islamic teachings, Jesus was both a prophet and a messenger of God. It is also an Islamic belief that the Torah and the gospels were handed down as the word of Allah, but that they were later corrupted. It is hard to sort out exactly when this textual change is supposed to have taken place considering that both the gospels and Paul’s letters date back to around 40-60 AD – and they are texts which contain the same gospel as we have in our modern Bibles today. This means that the corruption must have taken place even sooner than that, right after the death of Jesus, which means that Jesus did not succeed to keep the word of Allah very well. What did Jesus really accomplish on this planet if his urgent message to the after world was corrupted as soon as he died, despite that he had chosen faithful disciples to spread his gospel? How come both Jesus and his first disciples failed so miserably?

1 Cor. 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Muslims sometimes take Bible verses out of context which they claim are revelations about the upcoming prophet Muhammad. The problem is that the very same Bible passages also tell us that Jesus is the son of God, the final judge etc, and it’s not good hermeneutics to selectively keep and discard verses as you please in order to build up certain preferred doctrines. You can get any outcome in the world with that procedure, depending on your personal agenda. If the Bible is not trustworthy due to being corrupted, why does this not include those verses which are selected as an attempt to prove the prophet Muhammad right? How come we can suddenly trust the Bible in those cases?

Did Christ’s true message get distorted and a false message prevailed over it?sura 61

Why did it take almost 600 years before Allah decided to send another prophet which could set things straight after Jesus total failure to spread the true gospel through his disciples and followers?

Why are there no traces of such ”true” (Islam-supporting) gospel message left to the after world – from the time prior to Muhammad? Why can we only find Bible manuscripts and text variants which confirm the same Bible content which we have today? According to Islam, Jesus preached the same gospel as Moses, Abraham, Noah and Muhammad, so why is there no evidence for this in the manuscripts/variants of the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible)? We have NO historical support for that Jews converted to become Muslims, and if they did exist they must have been rather insignificant since they left no trace.

Yet, according to the Quran, Jesus was successful to acquire followers who were Muslims, and God promised Jesus that his (Jesus) followers would be superior to other believers until the day of the resurrection. The true disciples of Jesus would be the ones who prevailed according to the Quran! Allah did not say that Jesus followers would be led astray by Paul soon after the death of Jesus.

Behold! Allah said: ”O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.” (S. 3:55)

O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, ”Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?” Said the Disciples, ”We are Allah’s helpers!” then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED. (S. 61:14)

If the above verses are reliable, Allah must have helped Christians to spread a false gospel, because we know which gospel message that ”prevailed” and was superior among Jesus followers and that is the same gospel message that we can find in our Bibles today. According to historical sources, Christianity became the predominant religion of the world ever since the time of Christ – and we know which gospel ”variant” that dominated and spread across the world. That is the gospel that we still have today.

The letters of the apostle Paul were also included in the gospel message which prevailed over all other opposing messages. If Paul’s version of Christianity is a distortion, then the Quran must be wrong for claiming that God had caused Christ’s true followers to prevail. This would also mean that Paul was able to thwart Allah’s plans. Either the true followers of Christ were indeed successful to keep the teachings of Jesus (thus falsifying the Quran which has another message), or the Quran is false since it contradicts the true message of Christ’s followers.

The Quran does not say that Christ’s followers would only prevail from the time of Muhammad’s advent, but from the time that Christ was taken to God and unto the Day of Resurrection. So a victory from the very start. Why then is the Bible supposed to have been corrupted? How do Muslims reconcile the idea that the Quran is true when it is a historical fact that the Christianity that has prevailed until this day is what Paul taught and which is recorded in the New Testament?

What was the point with the virgin birth, the many miracles, the talk about being a Messiah, when Jesus failed to spread the gospel? And why is there big Pauline support from for instance Clement of Rome and Polycarp (both disciples of the apostles) if Paul’s teachings were contrary to the apostles? Both must have known the teachings of the apostles and were able to compare with Paul’s teachings. None of them rebuked him but endorsed his teachings. Clement mentions the death and the persecution and death as the most righteous pillars of the church and brings up Paul as a good example. Polycarp wrote that Paul ”accurately and reliably taught the word concerning the truth” (See Michael R. Licona, 2006, Baker Books, Grad Rapids, Michigan, Paul meets Muhammad, p. 75.)

Allah causing Christians to believe in Jesus divinity, death on the cross and resurrection? 

According to the dominant Muslim view (for instance supported by Ibn Kathir) Allah disguised one of Jesus disciples to make him look like Jesus and this person died on the cross. This would mean that Allah is responsible for starting the idea among Jesus followers that Jesus had died on the cross, and it is therefore Allah who is responsible for corrupting the teachings of Jesus. Where else would the idea of Jesus death on the cross derive from? If Allah sometimes tricks people (people who trust in his prophets) into believing falsehood, how can we be sure that he did not do the same thing with Muhammad?

And because of their (the Jews) saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger- they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. ( S. 4:157-158 Pickthall)

No one can change the word of Allah!bible with cross

If no one can change the word of Allah, then surely Paul – who wrote numerous letters in the New Testament – would not be able to thwart it and even be successful about it? Or was Paul powerful enough to change the word of Allah? Note that it is not only the Quran that is the word of God according to Islam, but also the original versions of the Jewish and Christian scriptures (the gospels and the psalms) – before they allegedly were corrupted.

There is none that can change the Words of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those Apostles (or: the other Apostles also say so). (S. 6:34)

No change can there be in the Words of Allah. (S. 10:64) 

And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him. (S. 18:27)

The Quran is CLEAR – which ought to result in that the text means what it appears to say

If the Quran is clear, and if even the hadiths confirm the clear and obvious meaning of the Quran, then who are we to change the straight forward text which likely mean what it says? It is normally the less popular suras (supporting violence) that people try to ”change” into something less drastic, but they really should refrain from doing this since the Quran is clear.

Muslims believe that the Quran cannot be translated satisfactory since the content of the Quran was revealed in Arabic and should be read in this language. Translations can therefore only provide a message rather than a proper translation. The Bible, however, does not have this weakness and can easily be translated into various languages while still maintaining the message.

Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur’an), explained in detail… (S. 6:114 Hilali-Khan)

Alif Lam Ra. A Book whose verses are set clear, and then distinguished, from One All-wise, All-aware: (S. 11:1)

And We have sent down on thee the Book making clear everything, and as a guidance and a mercy, and as good tidings to those who surrender. (S. 16:89 Arberry)

A Book whereof the Verses are explained in detail; A Qur’an in Arabic for people who know (S. 41:3 Hilali-Khan)

The Torah and the gospels were apparently trustworthy in the time of Muhammad

The Quran states the Bible tells us about the coming of Muhammad and it never suggests that faithful Christians have corrupted their scripture. Why is it that we can we read in the Quran that Muhammad was asked to go to Jews and Christians to get his message confirmed, if their scriptures were corrupted at this point?

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers. (S. 10:94-95 Pickthall)

Muslims are stuck with a dilemma:

1) If the Jewish and Christians scriptures were corrupted at the time of Muhammad, it would result in Allah asking Muhammad to get his message confirmed by false and corrupted scriptures.

2) If the Jewish and Christian scriptures were not corrupted at this time, then Muhammad would be proven wrong since the Bible contradicts the Quran and Jews and Christians would have told him so.

If the Bible was corrupted at the time of Muhammad, then Allah had all the chances in the world to provide a revelation to Muhammad that the scriptures before him should not be trusted for this reason. Instead we can see that the Torah and the gospels were repeatedly endorsed in the Quran which is ”clear”.

Children of Israel … believe in that I have sent down, confirming the revelation that is with you and be not the first to disbelieve in it … and do not confound the truth with vanity and do not conceal the truth wittingly (i.e. concealing the truth against better knowledge). (S. 2:40-42).

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Apostles. We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear signs and strengthened (or confirmed) him with the Holy Spirit. (S. 2:87).

And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers. (S. 2:89)

And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing. (S. 2:101 Shakir)

He has sent down upon thee the Book with the truth, confirming what was before it and He sent down Torah and the Gospel afore time, as guidance to the People and He sent down salvation. (S. 3:3).

God gave the scripture to the Christians and Jews so that they could make known to the whole world and every nation the true knowledge of God: And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it (3:187 AYA).

And when God took compact with the Prophets: ‘That I have given you of Book and Wisdom; then there shall come to you a Messenger confirming what IS with you — you shall believe in him and you shall help him; do you agree?’ He said. ‘And do you take My load on you on that condition?’ They said, ‘We do agree.’ God said, ‘Bear witness so, and I shall be with you among the witnesses.’ (S. 3:81)

We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them (3:84 AYA).

Say: ‘Bring you the Torah now and recite (or read) it, if you are men of truth’ (Sura 3:93).

You who have been given the Book, believe in what We have sent down, confirming what IS with you, before We obliterate faces, and turn them upon their backs, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-men, and God’s command is done. (S. 4:47)

O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray (S. 4:136 AYA).

And unto thee (Muslims) have We revealed the Scripture (the Qur’an) with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (S. 5:43-48, MP)   

Say: ”O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord” (S. 5:71 AYA/68 MP).

And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which IS before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly. (S. 6:92 Shakir)

Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them (S. 7:157 MP).

This Koran could not have been forged apart from God; but it is a confirmation of what IS before it, and a distinguishing of the Book, wherein is no doubt, from the Lord of all Being. (S. 10:37)

In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what IS before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe. (S. 12:111)

They say: ”If only he would bring us a miracle from his Lord!” Hath there not come unto them the proof of what is in the former scriptures? (S. 20:133 MP).

Before thee (i.e. Mohammed), also, the Apostles we sent were but men … If you realise this not, ASK of THOSE WHO POSSESS THE MESSAGE. (S. 21:7).

Dispute not with the People of the Book, save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say: ‘We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you; Our God and your God is One and to Him we have surrendered.’ (S. 29:45). 

The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah … and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (42:13 AYA).

Yet before it was the Book of Moses for a model and a mercy; and this is a Book confirming, in Arabic tongue, to warn the evildoers, and good tidings to the good-doers. (S. 46:12)

They said: O our people! we have listened to a Book revealed after Musa verifying that which IS before it, guiding to the truth and to a right path: (S. 46:30 Shakir) 

According to the Quran, Jesus started to preach Islam as a baby

baby

Sura 19:[19:22] When she bore him, she isolated herself to a faraway place.[19:23] The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, ”(I am so ashamed;) I wish I were dead before this happened, and completely forgotten.”[19:24] (The infant) called her from beneath her, saying, ”Do not grieve. Your Lord has provided you with a stream.[19:25] ”If you shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will drop ripe dates for you.*[19:26] ”Eat and drink, and be happy. When you see anyone, say, ‘I have made a vow of silence; I am not talking today to anyone.'”[19:27] She came to her family, carrying him. They said, ”O Mary, you have committed something that is totally unexpected.[19:28] ”O descendant of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother unchaste.”[19:29] She pointed to him. They said, ”How can we talk with an infant in the crib?”[19:30] (The infant spoke and) said, ”I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.[19:31] ”He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live.[19:32] ”I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel.[19:33] ”And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected.”

2 Pet 32 Pet. 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. (NKJV)

1 Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2 Cor. 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

God does not only hate the SIN but also the sinner who refuses to repent

love3It is not the SIN that will be thrown into the lake of fire but the SINNER

God indeed loves the world – so much that he let his only son die for us even though we haven’t deserved it. It was not only dirt, trees, lakes and flowers that he loved (no need to die for them) but the people living on earth. God doesn’t want anyone to perish, and the Bible says that he does not have any pleasure in the death of the wicked. God wants us to repent from our wicked ways so that we can live, and there is joy in heaven for each person who decides to repent. Looking at it this way, we can’t get rid of God’s love for us. His desire is always that each one of us will repent and be saved, because it’s naturally better to end up in heaven than in hell.

However, even if God loves us it doesn’t mean that he will accept us and welcome us into his kingdom no matter what we do. God’s love is in a way conditional, even if we don’t deserve his love and our salvation by anything we do or believe. It is when we confess our sins and repent as our previous sins are being removed, and when we have moved from spiritual death to spiritual life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Rom. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

Rom. 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ezek. 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?—32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

God does not only hate sin, but the Bible sometimes describes God as hating the sinner who refuses to repent from his evil ways

Psalms 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man

Psalms 11:5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

Lev. 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Titus 1:116 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Can you detect the conditions listed in these verses?

Proverbs 8:17 I LOVE THEM THAT LOVE ME; and those that seek me early shall find me.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 Cor. 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Cor. 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

Ja. 2: 5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.—21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.—11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.—18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.19 We love him, because he first loved us.20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Jude 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Deut. 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

John MacArthur causes a division in Church on false grounds – Strange Fire?

john macarthur

John MacArthur and his Strange Fire Conference, where he attacks christian charismatics

John MacArthur is a professed calvinist, and calvinists believe in TULIP which means (IF they want to be consistent with their own teachings) that they don’t believe that Jesus died for everyone (Limited Atonement), that God doesn’t want everyone to be saved, that people are born elect/non elect (saved/doomed), that nothing comes to pass against the will of God, that even sin is according to God’s will, etc. So not only does MacArthur preach false doctrines and insults our holy God, but as can be seen below it also looks like he is awfully close to committing the unpardonable sin by publicly ascribing the power of the holy Spirit – when it comes to casting out demons and healing people – to SATAN. It’s obviously not an unpardonable sin to simply doubt the truthfulness of a person’s supposed healing – not even if you express your doubt out loud, because you certainly might be right in your observation – HOWEVER if a person truly has cast out demons and healed someone and you as a believer of God publicly claim that this is not from the holy Spirit at all but of Satan, then it appears that you fit the description of blaspheming the holy Spirit. Being unsure is not a sin, and expressing your doubt is not a sin, but to publicly ascribe ALL modern cases of healing to Satan will lead to sin because not all of those cases are of Satan but of the holy Spirit. MacArthur seems to suggest that 100% of all claimed cases of casting out demons and/or healing are either fake or of Satan (unless it’s by the hands of Jesus or his apostles). If he is wrong in some of those cases – which he is – then this results in that he is guilty of suggesting that people have unclean spirits despite that they do NOT. The holy Spirit should rather be praised for what just happened instead of being attacked and compared with darkness. Only God can be the judge here, but MacArthur should reevaluate his mission – if it isn’t too late.

Matt. 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.—24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.—27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.—31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Mark. 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.—28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.30 BECAUSE THEY SAID, HE HATH AN UNCLEAN SPIRIT.

A transcript from MacArthur from his ”Strange fire” conference 2013, sponsored by Grace To You:

“Why don’t evangelical leaders speak against this movement?  Why is their such silence? Look When somebody attacks the person of Christ the Evangelical world rises up and says “no, no, no!”  . . . the Holy Spirit has been under massive assault for decades and decades, and I’ve been asking the question ‘where are the people rising up in protest against the abuse and the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?‘ The only thing I can suggest is that they have been literally backed up into a corner by intimidation that they need to be loving and accepting and tolerant and not divisive in the body of Christ, that’s been the mantra. . .”

He also says:

“people caught up in any kind of error are cut off from God’s blessing.”

”Why are evangelicals silent about charismatic error?”

”The Lord calls His people to honor Him, to treat Him as holy. Leviticus 10 pictures the consequences of not doing so—of offering to Him strange fire. For the last hundred years, the charismatic movement has been offering a strange fire of sorts to the third Person of the Godhead—the Holy Spirit. And evangelical churches have chosen to be silent or indifferent on the matter. This hasn’t served the church or the Spirit of the church with honor.”

Where did he get the term ”strange fire” from, which is the title of his conference, and which he ascribes to the entire charismatic movement? This Biblical incident:

Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

Numbers 3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the Lord, when they offered strange fire before the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest’s office in the sight of Aaron their father.

Numbers 26:61 And Nadab and Abihu died, when they offered strange fire before the Lord.

Clearly the strange fire offered to God in Leviticus was sinful and against his will, because he had forbidden that kind of unlawful fire. Nadab and Abihu were immediately devoured before the Lord when they transgressed his law. Since MacArthur equals the entire charismatic movement (Assembly of God, the Pentecostal church, etc) with this type of unlawful strange fire, then he couldn’t possibly regard any of the members as saved – but rather as gangsters who oppose the holy Spirit and side with Satan. How could anyone be saved who purposely present strange fire (which is nothing but demonic) before the Lord?

On his website MacArthur favors the idea that speaking in tongues is DEMONIC/SATANIC/HERETICAL and HAVE CEASED. Can anyone be saved who are demonic/satanic/heretical and who engages in spiritual matters that are no longer in use? Of course not, because then you’re engaging in Satanic matters instead of godly matters! So if you belong to Assembly of God or a Pentecostal church, you’re not saved according to MacArthur. Moreover, the gifts of the holy Spirit are not only in use in those type of churches, but they can also be found in various other churches even if they are more common in the charismatic ones. If you happen to be a person who belong to a charismatic church and don’t use any the spiritual gifts, how could you be saved if you choose to remain in the midst of demonic/satanic/heretical/false christians who present strange fire before the Lord? What does light have to do with darkness? Nothing! So the only conclusion is that MacArthur doesn’t believe that any of the members of the charismatic churches are saved, and that’s about 450.000 – 500.000 christians according to the statistics – and even more if you add all others (in other types of churches) who use the spiritual gifts. MacArthur says on his website:

”No, it is significant to note that Pentecostals and Charismatics can’t substantiate their claim that what they are doing is the Biblical gift. There’s really no evidence to prove it. There is no evidence that it’s language. You say then, ”What is it?” Could be demonic. Could be satanic. I think it was in Corinth, in some cases. Could be that. Ecstatic speech is a part of many pagan religions in Africa, East Africa. Tonga people of Africa, when a demon is exorcised, sing in Zulu even though they say they don’t know the Zulu language. Ecstatic speech is found today among Muslims, Eskimos, Tibetan monks. It is involved in parapsychological occult groups. Did you know that the Mormons, even Joseph Smith himself advocates speaking in tongues? It could be demonic.

Now all of these supposed manifestations of tongues were always identified as heretical, fanatical, unorthodox, outside the Church; and we conclude that when they ceased they ceased, and there have been continual off and on fabrications of counterfeit tongues. Since these gifts did cease, the burden of proof is on the Charismatics to prove that what is happening today is valid. Why do we always have to get backed in the corner and prove our case? Why don’t they take the Bible and prove theirs and look at history as well and do the same?

Wherever in the Bible does it say that you are to speak in a private tongue? Never! A private ecstatic, angelic speech–never! It’s hard for me to argue against those who say that tongues is a private prayer language because I can’t go to some text and correct them because there isn’t any text!

Suffice it to say that this unique gift given for the Apostolic time is irreproducible today, and whatever purports to be that is not that; it is something counterfeit. A myriad of studies, which I’ll deal with in the book [Charismatic Chaos], and when you get a copy you can read them in detail, give evidence of the fact that motor-autonomism (sp.), ecstasy, hypnosis, psychic-catharsis, collective psyche, memory excitation, and all other kind of terms are used to describe people who go into these kinds of trance like experiences.  

So there are no verses which say that we can speak in tongues privately? What’s wrong with these?

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue EDIFIETH HIMSELF; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and LET HIM SPEAK TO HIMSELF; AND TO GOD

I don’t feel those who speak in tongues need to prove anything to Mr MacArthur and he can continue to believe that speaking in tongues is ”trance like” even though they aren’t. If pentecostals today don’t do anything else but speaking in counterfeit demonic tongues, then only cessationists could be saved – unless he believes demon possessed people can enter the kingdom of God. This means that MacArthur concludes that a person is definitely NOT a christian as soon as he hears him speaking in tongues or making use of any other spiritual gifts. That’s pretty much the exact opposite of what the Bible says, because Peter and other believing jews realized that the gentiles around them had received the holy Ghost precisely because they spoke in tongues and magnified God (speaking in tongues in combination with good fruit). MacArthur, however, understands speaking in tongues totally different from the apostle Peter does, because when he hears someone speaking in tongues he (MacArthur) believes that person is not saved because of the tongues.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.46 FOR THEY HEARD THEM SPEAK WITH TONGUES, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, WHICH HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST as well as we?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 Thess. 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.20 Despise not prophesyings.21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

MacArthur doesn’t do anything else than causing a huge DIVISION in church, but I admire his ability to twist the Scripture to make it say what he wants at the same time as he suggests that other preachers (but not himself) are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Maybe he who shouts ”beware of the wolf” the loudest is one of the biggest wolves himself? He would do well to consider the following verses which he either avoids or butchers in his ”charismatic chaos series” and in the Strange fire conference:

1 Cor. 12:Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.—10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.—30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?31 But COVET EARNESTLY the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Paul tells us to covet earnestly the best gift. Does MacArthur obey Paul in doing so? Does he realize that speaking in tongues might not be understood (since the Bible says that NO MAN UNDERSTANDS) and that there wouldn’t even be a need of the gift of interpretation of tongues IF tongues were always understood? Paul doesn’t say ”if you don’t have the gift of interpreting, then don’t use the gift of speaking in tongues at all”.duva

1 Cor. 14:1Follow after charity, and DESIRE spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.  2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT UNTO MEN, but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH HIM; howbeit in the spirit HE SPEAKETH MYSTERIES.  3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.  4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue EDIFIETH HIMSELF; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.  5I WOULD THAT YE ALL SPAKE IN TONGUES but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.”— 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are ZEALOUS of spiritual gifts, SEEK that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue PRAY that he may interpret.14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.—18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all19 Yet IN THE CHURCH I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.—28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and LET HIM SPEAK TO HIMSELF; AND TO GOD.—39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Does MacArthur understand that we are not even speaking to men but unto GOD when we speak in tongues (and no man understands), UNLESS the tongues are interpreted? Does he realize that Paul recommends us to speak in tongues privately at home? Does he realize that Paul NOWHERE says that the speaking in tongues shall cease before the coming of Christ, when we shall see him as he really is? If speaking in tongues has ceased, as MacArthur claims, how come it hasn’t? How come millions of true born again christians still speak in tongues? If they are all Satanic, why didn’t Paul bother to warn us about this? Wouldn’t it have been better for Paul to say somewhere that ”the true speaking of tongues shall cease close after my own death, but there will be millions and millions of so-called christians (who show good fruit) who will speak in FALSE tongues, so be aware of them and don’t fall into the same trap”, etc?

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

If Paul spent a few months in a certain church and noticed that none of the spiritual gifts were present, wouldn’t he have been disappointed and reproved the leaders of this church for neglecting to encourage these gifts – which could have been to much edification both for individuals and/or for crowds of people? I fear that people are so afraid of the misuse of the gifts of the holy spirit that they don’t seek them at all, and this ends up being a victory for the devil.

Unfortunately, John MacArthur has made a study Bible, and you would do well to disregard it. He gets a lot of things right, but he also gets lots of things wrong and there is a risk you will fall for gnosticism/calvinism (and that God is the author of sin) if you start to believe MacArthur’s claims in his book. I can also say that quoting MacArthur where it sounds like he believes that man has free will, that we all have a chance to be saved, etc, only proves that he is not consistent with his own teaching (TULIP) and that he contradicts himself.

”Yes, someone says, but can’t Christians put themselves outside God’s grace? What about those who commit ABOMINABLE SINS? Don’t they nullify the work of redemption in themselves? Don’t they forfeit the love of God? CERTAINLY NOT …. it’s preposterous to think that we can forfeit it [salvation] BY ANYTHING WE DO” (John MacArthur, Jr., The Love of God, Word Publishing, 1996, p. 159.)

”Secondly, you asked about occasional SEXUAL SIN or getting drunk. Again, THESE SINS CANNOT CAUSE A TRUE BELIEVER TO LOSE HIS SALVATION” (Personal letter dated 1/10/94 sent by Bryan Johnson, a counselor from John MacArthur’s ministry.)

The Bible says:

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 Peter 2:2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

1 Tim. 4: 1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Jude 1:For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have no other desire than seeing also John MacArthur receiving the gift of speaking in tongues (and other gifts), but if puts so much energy in fighting against the holy Spirit and His gifts, the chances are slim that it will happen.

John MacArthur teaches that it’s possible to be saved even after having taken the mark of the beast (he starts with the incorrect premise of pre-tribulation). The Bible says the opposite. What if people in the future trust MacArthur’s assurance and take the mark of the beast? It’s of course no valid excuse to blame others (false teachers) for our choices, but teachers who present damnable doctrines have blood on their hands. Let’s pray for their repentance, and that people won’t trust MacArthur’s false assurances.

See below how MacArthur makes it known, that if you’re in the charismatic movement you’re NOT saved and you’re NOT part of the body of Christ. I get chills down my spine listening to his war against charismatic christians, and how he gets applauds from the other leaders (and the audience), and how people laugh when he makes jokes about the whole matter. I also don’t trust his concern for lost souls, because if he is right about his own gospel, then his God doesn’t even want all people saved, but only the elect – and of course all calvinists belong to the elect.