It’s very hard to get around the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus was BEFORE ALL THINGS and has always been with the Father from the beginning. Jesus was also together with the israelites during the Exodus according to Paul, so he didn’t have his initial start in the virgin Mary. We can trust that God is able to describe the attributes of Jesus in a way that we can understand, and if absolutely NOTHING and NO ONE was BEFORE Jesus (and God is SOMEONE isn’t he?) then Jesus must have been the origin of all things, and truly first and eternal.
Since we can read that all things were made by Jesus and all things were made by God, it must mean that Jesus IS this GOD (as in the same trinity) because only God can possess this creative power. Since the Bible makes it very clear that there is only ONE God, Jesus and the Father must therefore be in the same GODHEAD.
Jesus was before all things and created everything with his own hands
Colossians 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY HIM, and for him: And HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist.
John. 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
1 Cor. 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, BY WHO ARE ALL THINGS, and we by him.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE.10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.—14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Revelation 19:13 And he [Jesus] was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.)
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, to receive glory and honour and power: FOR THOU HAST CREATED ALL THINGS, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; —.8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.—10 And, Thou, Lord, IN THE BEGINNING HAST LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH; and THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF THINE HANDS
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon theLord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the MIGHTY GOD.
GOD (God the Father) created all things with his own hands – ALL ALONE
Isaiah 37:16 O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:—-.8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, HE formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.—.21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isaiah 51:13 And forgettest the Lord thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?
Ps. 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet
Ps. 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Ps. 95:3 For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.4 In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also.5 The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker.
Ps. 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Ps. 115:15 Ye are blessed of the Lord which made heaven and earth.16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Ps. 148:5 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created.6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.—13 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.
Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen. 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Deut. 4:32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?—35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.—39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Deut. 32:6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not MADE thee, and established thee?
Job 9:1 Then Job answered and said,2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?—8 Which ALONE spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.
2 Kings 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord, and said, O Lord God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou ALONE, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
Eccl. 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.
Jeremiah 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Acts 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein
Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Eph. 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ
Hebr. 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.—6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Proverbs. 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord.36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Jesus was with the israelites in Egypt and during Exodus, and we are to worship the CREATOR – which is Jesus
Jesus existed long before he came into flesh and was born by Mary. We can see him as THE angel of the Lord as per this blog article (note that malak doesn’t have to be an angel but can be any type of a messenger of God) and it could be in this form that he was together with the israelites during the Exodus.
1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Hebr. 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;—7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.—15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Ps. 95: 1 O come, let us sing unto the Lord: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.—7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Deut.4:33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
Acts.4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,—10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Do read my blog article about the misconception that Jesus is “created”.
Hej Annika, tack för ditt svar. Du skriver i din presentation av dig själv att du tror på den “klassiska treenigheten”. Jag tycker mig ändå se att du följer inte den till punkt och pricka, vilket med ger en intressant öppning för vidare diskussion av Jesus natur. Du är ju av den uppfattningen att Jesus är ändå skapad av Fader, men att Fadern kallar Sonen Gud. Detta är intressant och lite överraskande därför att här hittar jag en viss gemensam linje i detta stora ämnet.
Ja! Även jag ser bevis i Skriften att Sonen har en början i sin existens så som det står i Skriften, i Kolosserbrevet kapitel 1 och vers 15:
“Han är den osynlige Gudens avbild, den förstfödde av allt skapat”. (NW)
Kollade även Bibel 2000 och där står det i princip likadant:
“Han är den osynlige Gudens avbild, den förstfödde i hela skapelsen.”
Och i del mellanradiga:
“and who is the image of the invisible God, First born of every creature.” alltså nästan exatkt på samma sätt som NW.
Ja, du har rätt, i Joh 1: 1 kallas Jesus gud, det står dock ingenting att han skulle vara jämbördig med Fadern trots att han i sin gestalt liknade Gud, han är ju en avbild av den osynlige Guden och har fått stor makt av Fadern och därför gudomlig och kan sägas vara en gud, vilket har innebörden: “en som är mäktig”. Dessutom “förstfödd av hela skapelsen.” Han har en särställning inför sin Gud jämfört med resten av skapelsen.
Att Jesus skulle vara “100% Gud och 100% människa som vissa trossamfund hävdar krockar däremot med Skriften direkt, vet inte om du håller med om det (kanske?).
Det var några tankar om det…
mvh: K. Wlkman
<<Du är ju av den uppfattningen att Jesus är ändå skapad av Fader, men att Fadern kallar Sonen Gud.
Var har jag skrivit att jag tror att Jesus är skapad?
Ja! Även jag ser bevis i Skriften att Sonen har en början i sin existens —-
Inga av de verser du citerar visar att Jesus har en början, såvida vi inte pratar om att Jesus som Jesusbarn har en början – vilket han förstås har. Som vi tidigare varit inne på så är "förstfödde" inte säkert först född av en syskonskara. Har skrivit ett blogginlägg om begreppet.
<<Ja, du har rätt, i Joh 1: 1 kallas Jesus gud, det står dock ingenting att han skulle vara jämbördig med Fadern
Det skulle leda till att vi har flera gudar. Bibeln lär dock att det endast finns en Gud. En skapare. "Gudomlig" är ett tillägg. Jesus kallas Gud.
<<Att Jesus skulle vara "100% Gud och 100% människa som vissa trossamfund hävdar krockar däremot med Skriften direkt
Kan inte se att Bibeln talar emot detta.
Jag tänker så här: att Jesus var innan Abraham blev till, eller t.om. innan jorden skapades därför Jesus var den första som Gud skapade och den ende som skapades DIREKT av Gud, Därför kallas han “den enfödde Sonen”, allt annat blev skapat med hjälp av Jesus, alltså “genom” honom som Skriften säger. Bibeln stöder inte tanken om att den som föds inte skulle ha en början, detta än en påhitt. Jesus liv började när han blev skapad av Gud, därför kallar han Gud sin Fader.
Att någonting föds används förvisso även som metaforer i Skriften. Detta är inte heller unikt i det vardagliga språkbruket i Sverige. T.ex. en tanke eller en idé kan plötsligt födas o.s.v. Men det betyder inte att ett barns liv inte skulle bli till genom födelsen eller t.om. innan det.
Jesus kallar även Fadern “min Gud”, men var hittar man stöd för tanken att Fadern skulle kalla Sonen “Min Gud”? 🙂
mvh: K. Wilkman
<<Jag tänker så här: att Jesus var innan Abraham blev till, eller t.om. innan jorden skapades därför Jesus var den första som Gud skapade och den ende som skapades DIREKT av Gud,
Bibeln säger dock inte att Gud skapade Jesus, och i så fall var han inte den ende som skapades direkt av Gud, då Adam och änglarna också skapades direkt av Gud. Jesus skulle då vara den andrafödde bland människorna. Det är lättare att acceptera det Bibeln säger, att Jesus fanns innan ALLT, och ALLT betyder verkligen ALLT, synligt, osynligt. Det är som författarna vill göra det övertydligt för att de vet att det skulle komma folk som predikar emot Jesus hela Gudom. Även Herrens Ängel (ingen skapad budbärare) kallades för Gud, och jag har skrivit om hur detta kan vara en inkarnation av Jesus. Gudshuvudet är inte begränsat utan kan sända ner en budbärare till jorden utan att tvingas sända ner hela Gud. En sandhög kan delas i tre sandhögar.
<<Bibeln stöder inte tanken om att den som föds inte skulle ha en början, detta än en påhitt.
Här är vi överens, när det gäller Jesus.
<<Jesus liv började när han blev skapad av Gud, därför kallar han Gud sin Fader.
Fast Gud kallas även sin son för Gud. Det står att Jesusbarnets början handlar om en säd. Det har sitt ursprung i Gudshuvudet. Jesus sägs ha gett sitt liv själv, trots att Gud inte delar sin ära med någon. Ideligen kan vi se hur Jesus ärar sig själv, hur Fadern ärar honom, änglar och andra. Jesus kallar Fadern för Gud och Fader eftersom det är den rätta definitionen. När Jesus levde som människa som kommunicerade han till Gud i himlen som han ville att andra också skulle fortsätta att göra. Det är ingen paradox att kommunicera med ursprunget i Gudshuvudet.
<<Jesus kallar även Fadern “min Gud”, men var hittar man stöd för tanken att Fadern skulle kalla Sonen “Min Gud”?
Fadern har aldrig fötts som människa på jorden med ett behov att kalla Jesus i himlen för "Min Gud". Det var ju tvärtom. Men Gud Fader kallar alltså sonen för GUD vilket betyder att han är det. Jesus hade dödsdomen över sig från judarnas sida ust för att han, en människa, gjorde sig själv till Gud. Så gör man inte, såvida man förstås inte är Gud.