List of Bible verses that show a flat earth with a firmament

Bible verses showing that the earth is flat and immovable

”Yea, hath God said — ?” (Gen. 3:1)

If we are to be really honest with ourselves, the Bible is a geocentric flat earth book and there is no question about it. If we also add the book of Enoch, the matter is completely settled. This is not proof that the earth is flat, but it is evidence that the Bible teaches it. Let this not be a matter of salvation. It is not a sin to believe that the earth is in the center of God’s creation and that it is immovable, standing on four pillars, has four corners, is likened to a footstool, has a firmament above it containing the stars, the sun and the moon, etc.

footstool

A footstool under God’s feet or a constantly moving BALL?

Some of the verses below are poetic in nature but this does not mean that we can just pretend that they do not hold any type of message to us and are meaningless. They might express the reality in a figurative sense. In the Bible we will find poetry, visions, dreams, parables, analogies, figurative speech, prophesies, psalms, hyperboles, etc, and naturally we must read the text with this in mind. Still, an author would like to express something with this type of text usage and that is often to mirror the reality. It is also important that we do not pick and choose by for example viewing certain verses in the book of Psalms literally when it is suits our own agenda (for example ”in sin did my mother conceive me” by king David in Ps. 51:7), but dismissing other verses in the same book by suggesting ”it’s only poetry so it doesn’t mean anything!” when the message does not fit the same agenda.

For instance, the Bible says that the earth is like a footstool to God, so this is an analogy for us to consider. Do we picture God sitting with a constantly moving and rotating ball under his feet, or do we picture him with his feet on something that really looks like a FOOTSTOOL, like the one in the above picture? A footstool looks like an exact copy of the flat earth model. A footstool is also interesting in the way that it is actually not even needed. A chair (or in God’s case a throne) is higher in importance than a footstool, and it is not even certain that a person in the chair will bother putting up his feet on a footstool. To use a footstool as a picture of the earth is not to show God as an arrogant Majesty who looks down on us with disdain, but to give us some perspective between the Creator and his creation. Compare with his speech to Job, where God’s mighty power is highlighted and his message that Job and his friends were hardly equipped to give the Creator neither advice nor criticism.

Apart from the list below, Christian flat earthers believe that one of the very best argument for a geocentric world picture is the total absence of Bible verses which say something to the effect that the earth is shaped as a ball, constantly moving/rotating, speeding around the sun, is placed in a vast universe with stars and galaxies several trillion miles away, etc.

Many creationists say that it would have been so easy for God to say that a ”day” (Hebrew yom) in the creation account means something else than what we consider a day (but that a day can last millions of years), but God never says this. This is likely due to the fact that a day was, and still is, a normal 24 hour day or else God would have clarified this for us. Similarly, flat earthers believe that if God wanted to reveal a heliocentric model for us, he could easily have explained this for us but he never does. We are told the exact opposite. Therefore we should have respect for those Christians who believe in the geocentric model, because they are convinced that they get this model straight from the Bible.

BIBLE VERSES (KJV) in chronological order (i. e. Bible order)

1)

Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.—5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.—14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Comment: Based on the Bible’s creation account, we learn that the earth was created before the sun, there was a firmament with water both under it and over it, the sun, moon and the stars were placed IN the firmament (not above) and their purpose was to give light from the perspective of the earth. They were also created to be signs for seasons, days, and years (which for example sun och moon eclipses can offer). Interestingly, when we zoom in on stars through a telescope, they appear as though they are behind a layer of water. The sun and the moon are presented as though they both give light (with no indication that one of them only reflects the other ones light). The greater light was to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night.

2)

Gen.7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Gen. 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained

Comment: Naturally we are not to assume that real windows were in heaven, but something was opened up in heaven and an enormous amount of rain fell on earth. Normally it does not rain for that long, so where did all the water from above come from? It could be explained by openings in the firmament.

3)

Gen. 11:4 They said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top will reach into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” 5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.6 The Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city.

Comment: A story which would be impossible on a globe but more feasible on a flat earth model with a firmament as the maximum limit, and especially if there were giants around like Goliath who could participate in the construction. Still, to be able to build a tower up to an altitude near a firmament (they did not reach all the way) would mean that the tower would have reached an altitude where eventually moving and even breathing would be hard. God prevented them from building any further, but it seems like he was of the view that they would have succeeded to reach far enough had they continued: nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them”. About the tower of Babel here (Swedish). 

4) 

earth

The paths cause seasons by moving closer to the center and back again

Joshua 10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the Lord cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So THE SUN stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel.

Comment: The author could easily have said that the earth stood still if that was the case, but it says that the sun and the moon stood still, and that the sun took action by delaying going down (the sun goes down both in the globe model and the flat earth model). If the earth had to make a halt and stopped its rotating and its path across the sun, people on earth would have died. Joshua seemed to have viewed the sun and the moon as a couple that needed to slow down together in order for the project to work. According to the book of Enoch, the moon moves slightly slower than the sun, and it is interesting that the text in Joshua confirms it by two different verbs ”the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, as though the sun indeed made a complete halt while the moon almost did the same thing by slowing down considerably. The rocks thrown by God seem to confirm that his throne is placed rather close right above the vault since the rocks were thrown with such a precision. Had God’s throne been placed billions of light years away out in the universe, the rocks would fall all over the place and not in a certain valley on earth. God is almighty and can perform any miracle he likes? Absolutely, but looking at it that way, God does not need any rocks in the first place but can kill whoever he wants whenever he wants. (The book of Jasher is referred to 2 times in the Bible so it cannot easily be brushed off.)

5)

Judges 5:20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

Comment: Stars are viewed as living beings.

6)

1 Sam. 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and HE HATH SET THE WORLD UPON THEM.  

Comment: The oft mentioned pillars are placed as support for the world since the world is placed ON these pillars. Since the earth is elsewhere described as having four corners, it makes sense to place one pillar in each corner. Together with a vault, the outcome looks like a FOOTSTOOL

7)

2 Sam. 22:8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth. — 16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the Lord, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

Comment: The earth is often described as standing still which is the normality, but king David describes God’s wrath in such a way that the foundations of heaven will move and shake. This sounds like something out of the ordinary, but if the  normality is that the earth always moves and shakes due to the earth’s rotation and high-speed, what would be the difference?

8)

1 Chron. 16:30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. 

Comment: The ideal situation seems to be a stable world that is not moved. In the heliocentric model, the world (and/or the earth) is constantly moving without stop.

9)

Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars. 8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Comment: The ordinary scenario for the earth is to stand still (in the flat earth model), but here we can read the description of God’s power that can shake the earth ”out of her place”, and the pillars under it might tremble. If the earth would normally be rotating and travelling faster than a bullet around the sun, it would be illogical to suggest that the pillars under it can tremble and that the earth might be shaken out of its place. We can also read about commanding the sun to not rise, indicating that it is the sun that moves in such a way that it rises (instead of the earth’s movement). Sealing up the stars, might be a description how they are sealed into the firmament.

10)

Job 22:14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven. (”the vault of heaven” – ASV)

Comment: God’s position is just above the vault and since the clouds are right under it, they might also ”cover” him.

11)

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. 

Comment: ”Stretching out the north”, might refer to the whole construction of the pole star in the north and the stretched out firmament surrounding it. ”Hanging the earth upon nothing”? Is this a good description of an earth standing steady on pillars? Well, it is at least a closer description of a flat earth model rather than a globe model with an earth which constantly both rotates and travels at a high-speed around the sun. If you hang something up, like a picture on the wall, you expect it to remain still where it is hanged. You do not expect it to move around on the wall. A flat earth model, shaped as a footstool, could still be described as ”hanging on nothing”. The waters (like the oceans) are apparently compassed with bounds, and this might be a reference to Antarctica which is the outer ring on a flat earth model. The pillars of heaven tremble, which might be a reference to the pillars in each corner of the earth which are also connected to the firmament.

12)

Job 28:24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

Comment: Apparently the earth has ends, which works well on the flat earth model, but not on the globe model. God can see under the whole heaven, and that is true whether the earth is flat or a globe. If someone is high enough he can also see the whole earth (everything) under him, which could very well be the point that is being made here – in order to describe God’s majesty.

13)

Job 37:3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth. — 18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

Comment: The earth has ”ends”, and in the Bible the sky can also be translated ”expanse” as in YLT, where instead of ”molten looking-glass” we can read ”a hard mirror”. It is translated ”a cast metal mirror” in NKJV. This could be referred to the firmament of the sky, which apparently is strong and more or less solid. You can read more about a solid firmament here.

14)

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

Comment: A fastened foundation and a corner-stone work better as descriptions for a flat earth model, and especially if it is possible to stretch out a line over it. It is harder to stretch out a line on a ball. The stars are again described as living beings, just as much as the sons of God (angels) are, since they can sing. The sea (the oceans) are  described as being shut up with doors (bars and doors). Naturally not real doors, but it could be a description of Antarctica. Especially since we can read this statement: Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed”. A comparison is made with the womb, which has its outer bounds as well. It is not a big deal that boats and waves are restricted by large and small land masses (both continents and little islands), but we are reading here about an outer bound which is the maximum outer limit. 

15)

JobJob 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;13 That it might take hold of the ends of the EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?14 It is turned AS A CLAY TO THE SEAL; and they stand as a garment. — 18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, 20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

Comment: Again, we can read about the ends of the earth. We also get the picture of God being able to hold the ends of the earth and shake the wicked out of it. This is easy to imagine if a blanket or a sheet are used, and they have four corners. Like in this verse ”Acts 10: 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth” + Acts 11:5. Turning the earth ”as a clay to seal”, is difficult to imagine on a ball, but works well on a flat surface. In fact, if we do make a seal out of clay, it will turn out like the above which is a good picture of the flat earth model with an outer bound. 

16)

Psalm 18:15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

17)

Psalm 19: 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man TO RUN A RACE.  
His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his CIRCUIT unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Comment: If the firmament is nothing more than air or space, it is hard to see why precisely this air would be a glorious example of God’s handiwork. If, however, the firmament is something solid, bright and stretched out over the entire earth then it is easier to understand why this object is used as an example of God’s magnificent creation. We can read about the end of the world, and (just like in the book of Enoch) we can see that the sun has a tabernacle and likened to a bridegroom. This sun runs a race by going forth from the end of heaven and his circuit (a circle) unto the ends of it. This means that it is the sun that does the job around the earth, and not the earth travelling around the sun.

18)

Psalm 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

Comment: The inhabitants of the earth are real, so it is likely that the pillars are real as well.

19)

Psalm 78:23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven

Comment: Windows and doors are viewed as something that can be opened up – and maybe also the firmament is solid and able to have openings which God might choose to open up.

sheet20)

Psalm 93:1 The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

Comment: The oft mentioned phrase ”cannot be moved” does not work well on a heliocentric model where the globe rotates around its axis about 1675 km/h (approx. 1,000 miles/h) with an orbital velocity around the sun of about 28,000 km/hour. A suitable quote: ”For every second you’re moving almost half a kilometer through space and you don’t even feel it”. With other words; the earth in the heliocentric model is constantly moving and is the opposite of immovable.

21)

Psalm 96:10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it SHALL NOT BE MOVED: he shall judge the people righteously.  

Comment: It shall not be moved. This is often repeated, as though it is important information.

22)

Psalm 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Comment: If ”heaven” is nothing more than air or space, it is not a good example of impressing things that God can create with his hands.

23)

sun beamPsalm 104:1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:3 Who layeth the BEAMS of his chambers in the WATERS: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth. (NASB: 2:— Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain.)

Comment: A curtain that is stretched out around a ball does not even sound like a curtain.  On a flat earth model, however, the analogy works perfectly. We can read about beams of his chambers in the waters. (If you check the picture above, where does the sun seem to be? Right behind that cloud, producing a beam in the water all the way to the watcher, or billions of light years away?). God apparently laid the foundation of the earth with the aim that it should not be removed for ever. V. 5-9 seems to describe the creation and the division between land and water. We can again read about a boundary for the oceans which could be a reference to Antarctica. ”Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth”. It sounds like the waters were once above the whole earth, including the mountains, since we can read that the bound is there to not again make them cover the earth. 

24)

Psalm 136:6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Comment: Water finds its level, and it cannot bend around a ball. In the beginning God stretched out the earth (the land masses) above the waters. The sun rules by the day, and the moon and stars at night. This is confirmation of the description in Gen. 1 that these heavenly objects are created for the sake of the earth, and to perform their duties from the perspective of the earth. In the heliocentric model the earth is far away from the center and the earth plays no role for the objects in the universe.

25)

Psalm 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

Comment: Stars are not dead objects, but they are alive and have names.

26)

Psalm 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

Comment: When this psalm was written (long after the flood), it appears that waters were still above the heavens.

27)

Prov. 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compassupon the face of the depth(ESV —When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep.)

Comment: If the heaven is nothing more than air or space, it would not be much to ”prepare”. Drawing a circle on a ball sounds weird, but drawing a circle on a flat surface is easier to imagine.

28)

flat earthEccl. 1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to HIS PLACE where HE AROSE.

Comment: The sun is the one that performs the job of ”going down” and ”arising”, rather than the earth. The sun (called HE) returns back to the same place as he came from. This description does not fit a globe model.

29)

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Comment: If the earth has four corners and also has ends, it is a good guess that the pillars under it are four in number.

30)

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. — 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Comment: In the end of days things will change dramatically. Among other things, the moon shall no longer call her (a she) light to shine. The moon has its own light. The heavens will shake and the earth shall be removed out of her place. In a heliocentric model, this happens every day.

31)

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun RETURNED ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Comment: This does not work on a globe model. We can read that it was the sun that returned ten degrees. If the earth would have halted to go backwards, people on earth would have died. A sun halting or going backwards a few degrees would not be harmful in a flat earth model.

32)

tentIsaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Comment: ”Circle” in the above verse is a translation from the Hebrew noun chug (Strong’s 2329) which means circle, vault or horizon.(Note that it is not translated as ball or sphere.) Apart from the above verse, it is found twice more in the Bible. In Job 22:14 we can read about God walking on the circle/vault of heaven (walking on the firmament of heaven), and in Proverbs 8:27 we can read that this circle was inscribed into the face of the deep. NKJV phrases it as ”When He drew a circle on the face of the deep”. It is hard (or rather impossible) to draw a sphere or a globe into something, but it is definitely possible to draw/inscribe a circle into something. While chug is not a translation for ball, there is however a word for ”ball” that Isaiah could have used if this is what he wanted to express, but he did not use it in the above verse. He did, however, use it in Is. 22:18 where ball is a translation from dur (Strong’s 1754). An analogy is used of the heavens stretched out as a curtain and spread out as a TENT to dwell in – for the inhabitants who look like grasshoppers. It is almost impossible to imagine the picture of a tent placed on a globe where all the inhabitants live in. It is a perfect analogy if we imagine a flat earth with a firmament over it, and especially if we also imagine the tabernacle during the Exodus. Read more here.

33)

Isaiah 43:6 I’ll say to the north, ‘Give them up’! and to the south, ‘Don’t keep them back!’ Bring my sons from far away and my daughters from the ends of the earth

34)

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Comment: If the heaven is nothing more than air or space, it is nothing impressive about spreading this air out, either alone or with some help.

35)

Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

36)

Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Comment: Again, much ado about the spreading out the heavens with one single hand. If the heaven is only air or space, it is not impressive. If we are including the whole firmament/vault however, it is very impressive and even breathtaking.

37)

Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

Comment: Once again the moon is stated to give light, and once again the sun is stated to cause the movements on earth – here going down.

38)

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and THE EARTH IS MY FOOTSTOOL: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Comment: The earth is God’s footstool. Does it really look like a footstool standing firm on four legs, or does it look like a constantly moving ball?

39)

Ez. 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Comment: The firmament looked like crystal and the strange beings, which the text talks about, were right under this firmament. Ezekiel could still both hear them and see them in his vision. Just above the firmament is where Ezekiel could see the throne and someone who looked like a man upon it.

40)

Ez. 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

Comment: Again we can read that the moon has its own light. The stars will be dark, but it does not say that they will therefore cease to be stars. We know from Revelations that stars will eventually fall down unto the earth.

 earth 641)

Dan. 4:10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth —20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

Comment: A tree in the midst of the earth, high enough to reach heaven and visible to the entire earth? Someone might suggest that this is only a dream and we can even read in v. 22 that the tree was king Belteshazzar, but dreams do not have to be illogical just because they are dreams. It would make more sense for a divine dream to be somewhat logical in order to work as a reasonable comparison with the king. Daniel had several other dreams and visions, and while none of them were therefore ”real” they still made perfect sense.

42)

Dan. 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Comment: Stars are cast down to earth and stamped on. Still, life on earth continues. Even if this is only a dream, it is a confirmation of Jesus own words in the New Testament and the prophesies in Revelations.

43)

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Comment: Air and/or space will tremble? Or the whole construction with the firmament?

44)

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Comment: The moon is again claimed to have its own light.

45)

Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

Comment: Stars can apparently be idols, as though they were people.

46)

Amos 9:6 It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name.

Amos 9:6 (NASB)The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth—

Comment: ”The face of the earth” could signify a certain side up. A troop or a vaulted dome over the earth.

47)

Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

Comment: The earth has boundaries.

48)

Hab. 3:11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

Comment: The sun and the moon stood still. Can we choose to not believe it because it does not fit a certain model?

49)

Matt. 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Comment: Why the need to take Jesus up to a high mountain, if he would not be able to see more than a small region anyway? In the flat earth model, if he would be taken close to the firmament, he would be able to see the entire earth.

50)

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:—31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.  

Comment: Stars will fall on earth, and life will still continue. Every one shall see the son in the clouds, which is easier if the earth was flat. The elect will be collected from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Seems like the heaven starts and ends at certain places.

perspective51

1 Cor.15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Comment: Again it is hinted that the moon has its own light.

52)

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; WANDERING STARS, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever 

Comment: See more here about wandering stars. Planets are not mentioned in the Bible, but stars are mentioned – including wandering stars like Venus.

53)

Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.—20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 54)

Rev. 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Comment: The stars of heaven will fall on the earth, but the life on earth continues on also after this moment. The process is compared with figs being shaken off a fig tree, and figs land under the tree on a flat surface.

55)

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Comment: This is part of a prophesy, and since prophesies are real future events it makes sense to believe there will in fact be four angels on a mission which includes standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds. It is true that it is hard to take hold of a wind but we are not told exactly how these winds are being held. Real angels can accomplish real things which human beings cannot do.

56)

Rev. 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 

Comment: People survived despite of this star landing on earth, and the water did not burn up because of it but became bitter.

57)

Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Comment: A star fell unto the heaven, and apparently the bottomless pit (which some believe to be in Antarctica) remained intact without burning up.

58)

Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Comment. A third part of the stars of heaven were cast to earth, but life continued on earth also after this moment.

59)

Rev. 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.9 And they went up on the BREADTH of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Comment: ”The nations at the four corners of the earth” could be a way to express ”all nations”,  but this does not exclude the possibility that it is also literally true that the nations are within four corners of the earth – especially if we also add the information that there will be four angels standing at these corners holding the winds of the earth. The word ”breadth” above describes the surface of the earth, and not parts of the earth. The word is a translation from the noun πλάτος/platos (Strong’s 4114) and can be translated as width or broad plain. The corresponding adjective is πλατύς/platus (Strong’s 4116) which can be used as a description of a street as in Matt. 7:13 (flat and stretched out). The corresponding verb is πλάσσω/plassó (Strong’s 4111), which can be translated as form/mould. The French word ”plateau” signifies a level portion (or nearly level) of the earth’s surface. The French word derives from platel, which is a description of a flat object, like a plateIn Swedish the word for”flat” is ”platt” (similar in other Germanic languages).

***

I can also recommend reading the book of Enoch and the book of Jasher (both referred to in the Bible) and always compare everything with the Bible.

Why Satan would like to hide God’s creation from us:

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Rom. 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Fake moon landing: A funny thing happened on the way to the moon

If you want to learn more WHY people believe in a flat earth from their own sources:  Mark Sargent’s Flat earth clues. Eric Dubay’s 200 reasons the earth is not a spinning ball. The youtube channel My perspective.

(Note, that I do not necessarily agree with all statements in the links I recommend here or elsewhere on my Blog.)

Dokumentär film om platt jord från ett kristet bibliskt perspektiv

Plattjordtro sprider sig

Med tanke på den falska bild av plattjordmodellen som sprids av internetsidor såsom answersingenesis och creation (som mestadels slår ner halmgubbar genom att kritisera vanställda åsikter som ingen har), så kommer här nedan en bättre förklaring av modellen – främst för att den kommer direkt från källan. Visserligen så har de vanliga plattjordtroende olika åsikter sinsimellan, men de delar åtminstone själva grundkonceptet av modellen (och tror inte att vi bor på en snurrande boll) samt ogillar  den organisationen som kallar sig ”Flat earth society” som de ser som sina motståndare. Av det skälet ska man alltså inte göra misstaget att citera från denna organisation om man vill debattera med en plattjordtroende, eftersom denne förmodligen inte håller med.

Med tanke på den snabba spridningen av plattjordtro anser jag nästan att det är ett krav att sätta sig in i hur detta kan vara möjligt. Det kan vi endast göra genom att studera  argumenten – från deras material, och inte från deras motståndares material. Det finns inga andra sätt. Detta leder förhoppningsvis till att man kan få mer respekt för människor som har en annan åsikt om jorden, utan att man nödvändigtvis håller med. Annars så kan det gå som i fallet med pastorn som fick sparken efter över 8 år i sin tjänst, trots att han inte ens yppat sin tro i kyrkan! Hur kan detta ämne splittra kristna på det sättet? Bibeln beskriver det inte som en synd att tro på en jord som inte rör sig och som står på fyra pelare med ett himlavalv över sig.

Själv välkomnar jag denna stora plattjordtro eftersom fokus sätts på Guds skapelse (och därför på det faktum att det finns en Skapare) och vår unika centralt placerade jord. Så skulle inte Satan agera, eftersom han snarare hoppas att så många som möjligt tror på evolutionsteorin, slumpen, en mycket gammal jord som inte ens är en liten prick i universum och där människorna är helt betydelselösa och oälskade.

Oavsett vilken sida man står på så kan jag rekommendera en videokanal som heter My perspective, pga den imponerande grafiken. Det är sällan man håller med om allt som sägs ens i imponerande videomaterial, men då får man spotta ut benen och behålla resten. Missa heller inte Flat earth man’s videokanal Conspiracy music guru, med underhållande musikvideor (även om han ibland använder ovårdat språk).

Leighton Flowers, and his misunderstanding about righteousness and the SIN nature

sinThe ordinary misconception about sin and righteousness

I can definitely recommend Dr. Leighton Flowers’ pod channel Soteriology 101 as well as his YouTube channel with the same name, because he has a great ability to humbly describe the downfalls and inconsistencies of Calvinism (although perhaps he is even a bit too humble at times). Especially Dr James White has a lot to learn from Leighton, when it comes to debating and highlighting proper exegesis. Please check out Leighton’s channel and subscribe if you want to learn more about the dark side of Calvinism and why it does not fit the scriptures.

Even though I am in awe about Leighton’s way of dealing with Calvinism and Calvinists, I would also like to point out some doctrines where I disagree with his rather common ”Baptist views”. He has correctly said that Calvinism seems to contain two types of free will, two types of love, two types of calling, etc, (or something to this effect) but he too makes a similar mistake when he claims that there are two types of righteousness in his own belief system. He is convinced that this is the only way to avoid Bible contradictions, but there is a better way without having to resort to two types of righteousness.

I am not making any exact quotes here (unless possible) because I usually listen to his podcasts while out running and not being able to take notes. Nevertheless, I have heard enough to know that he believes that there are saved sinning Christians, and that it is totally natural for Christians to sin – and abnormal if they do not. He has not said it in those exact words but that is the only conclusion one can make from his comments. I am not saying that he actively encourages Christians to sin, nor that God does not care if Christians sin (rather the contrary), but he nevertheless teaches that sinning is normal and unavoidable both for unbelievers and believers.

The issues I am thinking about are the following (I am disagreeing with all of them):

  • No one is righteous
  • We cannot stop sinning
  • We cannot obey the law of God
  • We are saved by faith alone
  • Repenting does not mean leaving all of ”the old sinning man” behind
  • Once saved always saved
  • We can get Jesus righteousness transferred into us (Jesus imputed righteousness)
  • We are born with a sinful nature due to Adam
  • Penal substitution
  • Speaking in tongues – always being understood (and not even in use)

No one is righteous – Romans 3:10

The first verse to mention is Rom. 3:10, because this verse, read in a vacuum, is often used as a proof text for other verses. It is the famous ”no one is righteous” verseThe only way to be labelled righteous in a world where no one can successfully stop sinning, is to have someone else’s righteousness transferred into himself – namely the righteousness of Jesus Christ. However, this is not what the text is saying. First of all, Paul who made this claim called himself righteous along with two of his friends, and this means that Paul believes there are in actual fact people who can call themselves righteous. I suspect that Leighton would not disagree with that, but perhaps he would add that they are only righteous because of the righteous blood of Jesus and not because they are righteous in themselves. Nevertheless, Paul claimed that he indeed lived a righteous life by his own actions (likely referring to his life as a saved believer in Jesus Christ). Paul said that the conduct of him and his friends was holy, righteous and blameless (1 Thess. 2:10) and that he had lived with a perfect conscience before God (Acts 23:1). A person cannot sin and have a perfect conscience. Jesus tells us to be perfect, which means we can.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore PERFECT, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

When making the quote in Rom. 3:10, Paul starts off saying ”as it is written”, and it is of utmost importance to check this quote (see link above) in order to not misunderstand him. Paul is quoting from a couple of psalms where unrighteous people (the fools) are contrasted with righteous people (who do good and seek God). This means that even those quoted psalms claim in context that righteous people are non-existent, nor that it is impossible to seek God. Moreover, psalms are often mirroring the reality by using poetic expressions, which means that we should be careful to not take a verse from Psalms and make a doctrine out of it.

Since we have sinned, we must of course repent and be cleansed in the blood of Jesus. We have no authority to cleanse ourselves from our sins, but after having been born again the idea is that we must not revert back to our old life style but be led by the holy Spirit away from sin. We must DO righteousness! Peter, John, James and Paul say:

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and WORKETH righteousness, is accepted with him.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Ja. 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?—24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. — 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. — 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? — 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus himself believes there are people who are righteous, and that those individuals therefore have no need to repent (unless they sin of course) because they have already done so. (Repentance is a requirement for salvation.) He did not come to call the righteous to repentance but the sinners.

Luke. 5:32 – I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. 

Luke 15:7 – I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Jesus contrasts the righteous with the sinners, where the aforementioned are saved and the latter ones are not. This is far from the idea of ”sinning saints”.

1 Pet. 4:18 – And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1 Cor. 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

works of the lawWe cannot stop sinning? Yes, people could obey the law also in the Old Testament

Leighton and others seem to take for granted that God’s law can never be fully obeyed, and especially not when it comes to the Old Testament. The idea is often that ”this is the reason that Jesus died for us, because of our inability to obey the law!”. The Bible, however, does not say that God’s commandments are too hard for us to follow, or that we are created too weak to follow them. If we do not even have an ability to fully obey God, and God is aware of this, would it really be our fault if we sinned? If we can obey and does not do so, we are guilty. If we cannot obey of no fault of our own and therefore sin out of necessity, we are not guilty.

But if we could obey, why did Jesus die? Because we have sinned. Bad choice. We are guilty sinners precisely because we could have obeyed but chose not to.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. — 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Is. 55:6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Deut. 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.—14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, THAT THOU MAYEST DO IT.15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 

The Bible says we are NOT saved by faith alone

A lot of Christians should take the practice to repeat the following verse a few times a day:

Ja. 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.

Lots of people do not even believe this verse is in the Bible, but the fact is that faith without works is dead. Also demons have faith. It is true that Paul spends a lot of time trying to get the Jews to understand that they are not saved only because they are born Jews and because of any need to follow the 613 Jewish laws (including circumcision) but that is often labelled as ”works of the law” (the law of Moses). Paul makes a clear distinction between the law of Moses and the always existing Godly laws which have always applied throughout history:

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.  

We are not saved by faith alone.

Ja 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?—25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Repenting – a requirement for salvation

Repenting requires turning away from sin (Acts 3:19; 26:20), and the Bible promises wrath for the impenitent (no matter their faith) and not mercy. Repenting is not one and the same as confessing sins, because also agnostics and atheists might choose to confess their sins. Spending your days sinning and confessing will not save you.

If the case is that Leighton believes that no one can confess their sins without the holy Spirit working in them first, there are Bible verses which speak against it. Sure, we are created to seek God and find him (Acts. 17:27) so in this way we are all ”drawn” to him and divinely created to come to him (if we so desire), but the Bible says that we get the holy Spirit after that we confess and repent (see verses below). Having the holy Spirit does not mean we will automatically obey him.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.  

Act 26:20 – But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should REPENT and turn to God, and do WORKS meet for repentance.

Mar 6:12 – And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Mat 4:17 – From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.  

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.— 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

osas 10Once saved always saved – the devil’s lie

It is not God’s responsibility to make sure that we endure to the end and do not fall back into sins. If anyone chooses to sin, perhaps by getting involved in adultery and lies, it is always and only his/her own fault and therefore not possible to blame God for not holding him tight enough or for not completing the salvation process all the way into eternity. It is very common to say that the person ”was not saved to begin with” if he gets involved in heavy sin, but the Bible (and real life) is full of examples with people who have died spiritually due to sin (like the prodigal son). Sure, some of them chose to repent and returned back to life, but it is not certain that everyone will choose to do this.

Leighton says: ”— God promises to complete the process of salvation in the believer into eternity. ” and ”We deny that this Holy Spirit-sealed relationship can ever be broken. We deny even the possibility of apostasy.”

It is the devil who taught ”Ye shall not surely die” to the God-believing Eve, but he lied. Sinning always has and always will cause spiritual death – unless the person repents. (Repenting means turning away from sin.) A branch in the vine (Jesus) can be cut off due to lack of fruit.

Rom. 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is DEATH.— 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive AGAIN; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Rom. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Also in the Old Testament we can read that a righteous person (someone who does righteousness) will not be aided by his previous righteousness if he sins again. He will rather die in his sins if he lives in sin.

Ez. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,— Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.—13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,—17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Imputed righteousnessimputed righteousness

You will never read in the Bible that we can get Jesus righteousness imputed into us. Not even in Rom. 4. Yes, we can read about ”imputed” righteousness, but not from Jesus Christ. The word ”imputed” comes from the Greek word ”logizomai” (Strong’s 3049)  and does not mean ”transfer”, but rather ”reckoned” or ”counted as”. If we have repented from our sins, and become totally cleansed, we are reckoned as righteous because we are. This will last as long as we keep ourselves righteous and do not become dirty again. Remember that WE must do righteousness, and we are told to not be deceived about this. Do not let anyone tell you that you can be regarded as righteous in God’s eyes while still living in sin, or that you can combine righteousness with sin and still be ok.

But wait a minute – does not the Bible warn us from thinking we can trust in our own righteousness? (Rom. 10:3; Phil 3.9) Yes, but what does this really mean? It means that we should not believe that we can be saved because of a permanent good standing with God which can never be changed no matter what we do. We should not do as the Jews, who believed they were always acceptable in God’s eyes because they were born as Jews, were sons of Abraham, etc. If a righteous person trusts in his own righteousness and commits sin, he must forget about being right with God due to that sin. This is the message we can read in Ez. 33:13, and it is still applicable.

Ez. 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Read more about ”imputed” righteousness here.

The sinful nature

It is good news that Leighton does not believe that people are responsible for having inherited a nature inclined towards sin (which means they are without guilt), but I do not even believe we have inherited a sinful nature in the first place. If we have inherited a nature inclined towards sin, what is the huge difference between the disposition of Adam and Eve? Why did they sin? Did they too have a nature inclined towards sin since they in fact did sin? Apparently they could choose to sin just as easily as their descendants, and this is evidence of that our nature did not change, which explains why the Bible does not claim it. If our nature would have changed due to our forefathers’ sin, why does the Bible not say so considering that this is rather significant information? Romans 5 and Ephesians 2 do not say it, nor any psalms.

Leigthon says: ”— because of the fall of Adam, every person inherits a nature and environment inclined toward sin and that every person who is capable of moral action will sin.  — We deny that Adam’s sin resulted in the incapacitation of any person’s free will or rendered any person guilty (?) before he has personally sinned.”

Penal substitution theory (originally from Anselm)

I believe that Jesus Christ died to REMOVE our sins, which is a big price to pay (his own life). I do not believe that Jesus paid for our sins, or that our sins somehow ended up in his body before they were eventually removed. Nor do I believe that Jesus took the penalty that we should have, on himself and instead of us. The punishment due to us is destruction and hell, which Jesus did not take on himself. Jesus did not die as a substitution in penalty but a substitution for penalty, under certain conditions. The atonement is a substitute for our penalty so that our penalty itself can be remitted in forgiveness by the mercy of God. If Jesus had paid for our sins, then our sins would be forgiven before we sinned and even long before were even born. Paid is paid. A breach of God’s law is either paid or forgiven – not both.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Speaking in tongues – ”no man understandeth him” (1 Cor. 14:2)

I am not exactly sure what Leighton’s view is about speaking in tongues or the spiritual gifts in general, but I have listened to a podcast which makes me suspect that he has the common ”baptist” view of the spiritual gifts – which means that he believes that spiritual tongues are always understood, and actually not even in use. A preacher such as Benny Hinn is unfortunately often used by non-charismatic preachers to represent churches which make use of the spiritual gifts.

1 Cor.12:13 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. —9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: — 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?31 But COVET EARNESTLY the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Cor. 14:1 Follow after charity, and DESIRE SPIRITUAL GIFTS, but rather that ye may prophesy.2 For he that speaketh in an UNKNOWN tongue speaketh not unto men, but UNTO GOD for NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH HIM; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. — 4 He that speaketh in an UNKNOWN TONGUE edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I WOULD THAT YE ALL SPAKE WITH TONGUES but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. — 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are ZEALOUS of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.14 For if I pray in an UNKNOWN TONGUE, my spirit prayeth, but MY UNDERSTANDING IS UNFRUITFUL.15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding ALSO: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. — 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. — 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

SO we should not forbid anyone to speak in tongues (so not discourage it), but we should DESIRE, COVET EARNESTLY and be ZEALOUS to speak in tongues – and even better; to do so when it comes to even better gifts like prophesying and healing (in order to edify even more people). The question is: Do we all obey this? Are we eager to get the gifts? Do we encourage others to get the gifts and explain to them what wonderful gifts which are awaiting them? If not, why not obeying Paul’s advice?

Some things we can learn from the above:

  • Paul explains the different parts of the body of the church, where prophesies, tongues, healing, etc, are some of the parts. He does not say that this body would  cease to exist within a few years.
  • There is such a thing called ”an unknown tongue”, which we are requested to eagerly seek. It means: no one understands.
  • We should desire the spiritual gifts (that is all of them, but especially those who can benefit the most people).
  • No one understands the tongues (unless they are interpreted).
  • Interpretation of the tongues is a separate gift, indicating that the original tongues must be interpreted if they are intended to be understood. 1 Cor. 14:13 is just one verse proving that it is not certain that a person who is able to speak in tongues automatically also has the gift of interpretation and able to know his/her own tongues.
  • Edification of oneself is a good thing (or else you must not pray for your own health, strength, wisdom, etc). Being able to edify even more people is of course even better.
  • Paul wished that all of the Christian Corinthians (and likely therefore all Christians) spoke in tongues, and he never added that this wish only applied for a certain time/generation.
  • If there is no interpreter available in church (which might be the case), then the person should pray in tongues to himself and to God. He is never told to forget about speaking in tongues because people are able to fake them.
  • We are asked to pray in two ways, we should pray/sing with the spirit (not understanding the words), or the opposite way which is praying/singing with our understanding and spirit. It depends on if you pray for yourself to God, or if you pray/speak edify other people.
  • Paul spends 3 chapter talking about speaking in tongues and other spiritual gifts, and he does not discourage it anywhere. He does the exact opposite and he wishes that everyone would speak in tongues.

Finally, a film by Torben Söndergaard. A Danish preacher who highlights both the importance of repentance and the fact that Christians should go out and preach the gospel, heal the sick, etc.

 

 

The parable of the TWO SONS – who said one thing and did the opposite – Matt. 21:28-32

repent2”He repented and WENT” (Matt. 21:29)

We are supposed to ”walk the talk” instead of just paying lip-service to God’s request of being obedient. The first idiom means ”performing actions consistent with one’s claims” and the second one means ”giving approval or support insincerely”. There are numerous parables in the Bible and while they might each convey different principles, most of them also show that we are justified by works and not only by faith (Ja. 2:24). This is normally the opposite story of what you might hear in church due to the teachings of men like John Calvin and Martin Luther.

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. (NKJV)

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Here is the parable (KJV) about the two sons who said one thing and did the opposite:

Matt. 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.29 He answered and said, I WILL NOT: but afterward he REPENTED, and WENT.30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I GO, SIR: and WENT NOT.31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, REPENTED NOT afterward, that ye might believe him.

These sons can represent anyone of us, but they might also represent two distinct  groups. The first son might represent those pharisees/Jews who claim to obey God but do not, and the other son might represent the publicans/harlots (or gentiles) who choose to obey God after having repented of their deep sins. During the time of Jesus, there were Jewish leaders who claimed to be obedient to God but did not show it with their life style. They might automatically have thought that they were the never-ceasing obedient ones since they viewed themselves as the chosen ones, the first-born, the sons of Abraham, the group of privilege, etc.

The Jewish leaders likely identified themselves with the first son who obeyed God, but Jesus disagreed (Matt. 21:32). They forgot that the this son repented of his thoughts and turned around (unlike themselves). Also, when Jesus says publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you”, he does not promise that sinners can enter heaven without the need to change their lives. The reason why they were stronger candidates for God’s kingdom than the pharisees, is because they were more likely to confess their sins and repent – which the pharisees felt they had no need for.

This parable might make us think about the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee in Luke 18. Many misunderstand this parable and believe that the main teaching is that you should at all costs avoid thinking that righteousness has anything to do with salvation (it does), but rather that you should trust the idea that the sinners can be labelled righteous despite their sins, and righteous people can be labelled awful sinners just because of their conviction that they are righteous. This is not what the parable is saying. Just like in the parable of the two sons, repentance is still required for forgiveness and salvation. The point in the parable of Luke 18 is rather that the pharisees/Jews should not trust in their salvation just because they are born as Jews as though this would automatically make them righteous and accepted. They should rather confess their sins, repent and walk in the steps of that faith of Abraham (Rom. 4:12). The Pharisee in the parable did not even feel that he even needed to be saved from sin due to being convinced of that he lacked it. The publican on the other hand confessed his sins from a humble heart (he wanted to be freed from sin), and since repentance is a requirement for salvation, this confession must be viewed as part of this repentance. Righteousness (your own and not someone else’s) is not the same as self-righteousness.

This is what the publican did:

1 John 3:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 3:If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

John 8:11 (Jesus)— go, and sin no more 

In the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15, it is the oldest son who is usually regarded as the one representing the Pharisees/Jews (but the parable applies to anyone where the shoe fits). The great principle in that parable is that the Father always stands ready with open arms to welcome back his disobedient son, but he does not go out and force him back. It is the son who finally admits his sins, repents and chooses to return back to his Father. The son went from life, to death, to life again. Too many people are eager to get the forgiveness part of the story, without the ceasing from sin part.

Peter understood the mission of Jesus:

Acts 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

The parable of the wise and foolish virgins (Matt. 25) tells the same story. Some virgins took action by bringing extra oil to their lamps, and this enabled them to join the bride groom in the wedding – not the others. The parable of the talents shows that obedient servants will enter into the joy of the Lord: ”Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.” The parable of the sheep and the goats also shows the same principle. The sheep were called the righteous ones, and the reason for this is because they provided food, drink, shelter, clothes and visits (good deeds) to their fellow-man, and they therefore also inherited the kingdom of God – not the others.  

The other parable in Matt. 21:33 (apart from the one about the two sons), concerns at least two main teachings. One concerns the importance of accepting Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the son of God and the corner-stone. The other concerns the importance of being a good servant and render him (God) the fruits in their seasons”.

Matt. 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you,and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

dove 2Matt. 21 also contains this marvellos promise:

Matt. 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Something else to think about if someone claims that it is a sin to be too righteous (because of the weird idea that it would make you a self-righteous Pharisee who clings to works-based salvation):

2 Tim. 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. —3 — false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Is. 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

BABELS TORN och språkförbistringen enligt Bibeln och andra källor

tower-of-babelBabels torn och språkförbistringen

Enligt Bibeln så talade människorna på jorden ett enda språk även efter att Noa och hans familj överlevt floden och börjat leva ett nytt liv i Araratområdet, och senare i Sinars land. Den främsta tanken bland människorna verkar ha varit att göra sig så pass berömda med sin stad och enorma torn att eventuella framtida fiender inte skulle göra sig besväret att försöka inta staden och kämpa emot invånarna. Utan denna stad och torn så skulle människorna snarare successivt börja spridas över jorden, var och i sina små samhällen/nationer, och detta ville alltså ”Babelmänniskorna” undvika. De verkar ha föredragit ett enda globalistiskt samhälle med en enda härskare, där alla människor förmås vara ”politiskt korrekta” och alltid vandra i grupp åt samma håll. Detta är en historia som bekräftas även i utombibliska källor. Gud hade det rakt motsatta önskemålet eftersom han ville att människorna skulle sprida sig över jorden och bosätta sig i separata nationer efter sina språkgrupper. Här nedan är Bibelns detaljer:

1 Mos. 11:1 Hela jorden hade ett enda språk och samma ord. 2 Men när människorna bröt upp och drog österut, fann de en lågslätt i Sinars land och bosatte sig där. 3 De sade till varandra: ”Kom, så slår vi tegel och bränner det!” Teglet använde de som sten, och som murbruk använde de jordbeck. 4 Och de sade: ”Kom, så bygger vi oss en stad och ett torn som har spetsen uppe i himlen. Låt oss göra oss ett namn, så att vi inte sprids ut över hela jorden.”5 Då steg Herren ner för att se på staden och tornet som människorna byggde. 6 Herren sade: ”Se, de är ett enda folk och de har ett enda språk. Detta är deras första tilltag, och härefter skall ingenting vara omöjligt för dem vad de än beslutar sig för. 7 Låt oss stiga ner och förbistra deras språk, så att den ene inte förstår vad den andre säger.” 8 Så spred Herren ut dem därifrån över hela jorden, och de måste upphöra att bygga på staden. 9 Den fick namnet Babel, eftersom Herren där förbistrade hela jordens språk, och därifrån spred han ut dem över hela jorden.

Den redliges bok (The book of Jasher)

Den redliges bok är omnämnd vid ett par tillfällen i Bibeln (samt referensen i 2 Tim. 3:8), och de äldre kyrkofäderna värdesatte den högt. Det handlar alltså om en mycket trovärdig bok som bekräftar Bibelns berättelser, ibland med ännu fler detaljer. Här får vi veta att det ursprungliga initativet till att bygga staden och tornet inte verkar ha kommit direkt från huvudpersonen Nimrod, utan från Terah (Abrahams pappa) och andra mäktiga män i staben kring Nimrod. Nimrod tyckte deras förslag var bra, och de började prospektera och bygga på staden för Nimrods palats och torn. Människorna insåg vilken mäktig person Nimrod var, och de anslöt sig till honom – om de inte helt enkelt blev besegrade av Nimrod och hans mannar.

Nimrod verkar ha varit en rättrogen man åtminstone som tjugoåring och dessförinnan, men när åren gick så hade han hunnit uppnå en nivå där han levde i total upproriskhet mot Gud och allt som Gud står för. Nimrod lärde ut avguderi och allehanda ondska till människorna som han härskade över. Trots att Nimrod bokstavligen var världens grymmaste man, så var hans son Mardon ännu värre än sin fader, och man skulle kunna tänka sig att ”mord” och ”mördare” (förekommer i flera språk) kanske härrör sig till hans namn. Enligt wikipedia så härstammar ”murder” från det indoeuropeiska ordet mrtró som betyder ”att dö”, och det äldre engelska ordet mordre kommer från det anglosaxiska morðor (murdre på äldre franska).

Nimrod var alltså härskare över alla människor på hela jorden, som ju levde på samma ställe. Man skulle kunna fråga sig vilka fienderna i så fall var som de var rädda för om alla människor redan böjt sig under Nimrod, men initativtagarna kanske tänkte på hur framtiden skulle kunna bli utan denna enorma stad, torn, murar och den påtvingade ”gemenskap” som människor skulle födas in i. Utan staden så skulle människor successivt börja sprida ut sig över jorden, och det skulle kunna uppkomma fiender som vägrar att böja sig under eliten i Babel för att i stället kämpa emot den. Det kan också ha varit så att det fortfarande fanns en del fiender innan staden byggdes, och att dessa sedan anslöt sig till projektet under Nimrods styre.

Enligt Jasher så bodde 600.000 män (förutom kvinnor och barn) i området när de hittat den bästa platsen för staden, vilket var i en dal ca två dagsresor (per fot) öster om Shinar. Hela arbetet grundade sig på motstånd till Gud. De tänkte i sina hjärtan att de kanske skulle lyckas kriga mot honom och nå ända upp till himlen där han ju har sin tron på himlavalvet. En tredjedel av människorna tänkte att de skulle kunna lyckas nå himlen och slåss mot Gud, en tredjedel tänkte att de skulle kunna placera sina egna gudar i himlen för att tjäna dem, och en tredjedel ville nå himlen för att döda Gud med pilar och spjut. Allt detta är förstås lättare att ta till sig om man också tror på Bibelns berättelse om ett fysiskt himlavalv (som en tältduk över jorden) där det finns stjärnor, sol och måne.

När sedan tornet började ta form och nådde flera kilometer upp mot himlen, så borde det också ha blivit svårare att andas och att röra sig på sådana höga höjder med lägre lufttryck och reducerad förmåga att ta upp syre i lungorna. Muskelkapaciteten blir då  lägre och man måste andas snabbare och djupare för att få luft. Efter ett antal år så tog det till slut ett helt år att få upp material ända upp till toppen. Visserligen så fanns varje dag arbetare som startade sin vandring upp till toppen, men dessa vandringar blev allt längre. Byggmaterial blev alltmer värdefullt och om därför en tegelsten föll och gick sönder så grät byggaren över katastrofen, men om däremot en människa avled så tänkte ingen byggare på honom.

Gen. 11.jpegNär de började komma nära himlen så sköt en del människor pilar uppåt för att försöka döda både Gud och hans änglar. När pilarna dalade ner igen så fanns blod på dem. Det var Gud som orsakat detta för att förvilla dem, och det fick dem att tro att de lyckats döda invånarna i himlen. Det var vid denna tidpunkt som Gud till slut valde att ihop med 70 änglar gå ner till människorna för att förbistra deras språk och därmed förhindra fortsatt arbete. Det låter nästan som Gud ansåg att de skulle kunna nå vissa framgångar vad gäller motivet för tornet (att nå himlavalvet), eftersom han sa Detta är deras första tilltag, och härefter skall ingenting vara omöjligt för dem vad de än beslutar sig för” (1 Mos. 11:6).

Rimligtvis fanns det rastplatser och tillgång till föda för människor och djur utmed  gångarna på väg upp till tornet. (Konfirmerat av historikern Verstegan som hänvisar till Isidore och en rad onämnda författare.

Språkförbistringen gjorde samarbete helt omöjligt bland människorna, och arbetare kunde t o m bli dödade om de bar upp fel material till byggare som rasande kastade materialet över dem. Gud straffade sedan människorna beroende på överträdelserna. En tredjedel blev såsom apor och elefanter, en tredjedel dog genom att arbetare dödade sina kamrater kanske pga ilska, och resten (en tredjedel) började alltså sprida sig successivt över jorden. Byggandet av torn och stad upphörde helt. En tredjedel av tornet sjönk till slut ner i jorden under sin tyngd, en tredjedel brändes upp pga eld från himlen (blixtnedslag?), och en tredjedel fanns kvar under tiden för Jashers bok, fast i utspridd form. Det tog tre dagar att vandra runt hela den stenhögen.  

Jasher 7:41 And he placed Terah the son of Nahor the prince of his host, and he dignified him and elevated him above all his princes.42 And whilst he was reigning according to his heart’s desire, after having conquered all his enemies around, he advised with his counselors to build a city for his palace, and they did so.43 And they found a large valley opposite to the east, and they built him a large and extensive city, and Nimrod called the name of the city that he built Shinar, for the Lord had vehemently shaken his enemies and destroyed them.44 And Nimrod dwelt in Shinar, and he reigned securely, and he fought with his enemies and he subdued them, and he prospered in all his battles, and his kingdom became very great.45 And all nations and tongues heard of his fame, and they gathered themselves to him, and they bowed down to the earth, and they brought him offerings, and he became their lord and king, and they all dwelt with him in the city at Shinar, and Nimrod reigned in the earth over all the sons of Noah, and they were all under his power and counsel.46 And all the earth was of one tongue and words of union, but Nimrod did not go in the ways of the Lord, and he was more wicked than all the men that were before him, from the days of the flood until those days.47 And he made gods of wood and stone, and he bowed down to them, and he rebelled against the Lord, and taught all his subjects and the people of the earth his wicked ways; and Mardon his son was more wicked than his father.  —

Jasher 9:20 And king Nimrod reigned securely, and all the earth was under his control, and all the earth was of one tongue and words of union.21 And all the princes of Nimrod and his great men took counsel together; Phut, Mitzraim, Cush and Canaan with their families, and they said to each other, Come let us build ourselves a city and in it a strong tower, and its top reaching heaven, and we will make ourselves famed, so that we may reign upon the whole world, in order that the evil of our enemies may cease from us, that we may reign mightily over them, and that we may not become scattered over the earth on account of their wars.22 And they all went before the king, and they told the king these words, and the king agreed with them in this affair, and he did so.23 And all the families assembled consisting of about six hundred thousand men, and they went to seek an extensive piece of ground to build the city and the tower, and they sought in the whole earth and they found none like one valley at the east of the land of Shinar, about two days’ walk, and they journeyed there and they dwelt there.24 And they began to make bricks and burn fires to build the city and the tower that they had imagined to complete.25 And the building of the tower was unto them a transgression and a sin, and they began to build it, and whilst they were building against the Lord God of heaven, they imagined in their hearts to war against him and to ascend into heaven.26 And all these people and all the families divided themselves in three parts; the first said We will ascend into heaven and fight against him; the second said, We will ascend to heaven and place our own gods there and serve them; and the third part said, We will ascend to heaven and smite him with bows and spears; and God knew all their works and all their evil thoughts, and he saw the city and the tower which they were building.27 And when they were building they built themselves a great city and a very high and strong tower; and on account of its height the mortar and bricks did not reach the builders in their ascent to it, until those who went up had completed a full year, and after that, they reached to the builders and gave them the mortar and the bricks; thus was it done daily.28 And behold these ascended and others descended the whole day; and if a brick should fall from their hands and get broken, they would all weep over it, and if a man fell and died, none of them would look at him.29 And the Lord knew their thoughts, and it came to pass when they were building they cast the arrows toward the heavens, and all the arrows fell upon them filled with blood, and when they saw them they said to each other, Surely we have slain all those that are in heaven.30 For this was from the Lord in order to cause them to err, and in order; to destroy them from off the face of the ground.31 And they built the tower and the city, and they did this thing daily until many days and years were elapsed.32 And God said to the seventy angels who stood foremost before him, to those who were near to him, saying, Come let us descend and confuse their tongues, that one man shall not understand the language of his neighbor, and they did so unto them.33 And from that day following, they forgot each man his neighbor’s tongue, and they could not understand to speak in one tongue, and when the builder took from the hands of his neighbor lime or stone which he did not order, the builder would cast it away and throw it upon his neighbor, that he would die.34 And they did so many days, and they killed many of them in this manner.35 And the Lord smote the three divisions that were there, and he punished them according to their works and designs; those who said, We will ascend to heaven and serve our gods, became like apes and elephants; and those who said, We will smite the heaven with arrows, the Lord killed them, one man through the hand of his neighbor; and the third division of those who said, We will ascend to heaven and fight against him, the Lord scattered them throughout the earth.36 And those who were left amongst them, when they knew and understood the evil which was coming upon them, they forsook the building, and they also became scattered upon the face of the whole earth.37 And they ceased building the city and the tower; therefore he called that place Babel, for there the Lord confounded the Language of the whole earth; behold it was at the east of the land of Shinar.38 And as to the tower which the sons of men built, the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up one third part thereof, and a fire also descended from heaven and burned another third, and the other third is left to this day, and it is of that part which was aloft, and its circumference is three days’ walk.39 And many of the sons of men died in that tower, a people without number.

The book of JubileesShinar

Denna bok är inte lika detaljrik, men innehåller ändå några uppgifter. Även denna bok konfirmerar att byggarna ämnade bygga så högt att de skulle kunna nå himlen, och vi får veta att det var under den fjärde byggveckan som de startade med att bränna tegel för att ha som material. Den ”asfalt” eller ”bitumen” som beskrivs som murbruk hämtades från sjö och vattenkällor. Vi får också veta att det tog 43 år att bygga allting, tills de alltså blev stoppade av Gud. Vi får även veta omfånget av staden, om än med äldre mått. Om man söker på en modern ”aln” så får man som svar att det skulle handla om ca 2,5 km, men man skulle lika gärna kunna få allt mellan 5,9-7,6 km om man räknar på andra sätt och/eller använder andra epokers mått – eller helt andra källor. Vi kan alltså inte veta säkert hur högt tornet var.

Gud ville som sagt inte alls att folket skulle bo samlat, utan snarare att de skulle skingra sig, befolka jorden, och bo i städer och separata nationer. Enligt book of Jubilees så var det snarare en vind som orsakade att toppet av tornet rasade (det kan i och för sig ha varit en vind som omkullkastade ett försvagat och brandskadat torn), och framför uppgiften att detta skulle ha skett mellan Assur och Babylon – i Shinars land.

Jubilees 10 And in the three and thirtieth jubilee, in the first year in the second week, Peleg took to himself a wife, whose name was Lomna the daughter of Sina’ar, and she bare him a son in the fourth year of this week, and he called his name Reu; for he said: ‘Behold the children of men have become evil through the wicked purpose of building for themselves a city and a tower in the land of Shinar.’For they departed from the land of Ararat eastward to Shinar; for in his days they built the city and the tower, saying, ‘Go to, let us ascend thereby into heaven.’And they began to build, and in the fourth week they made brick with fire, and the bricks served them for stone, and the clay with which they cemented them together was asphalt which comes out of the sea, and out of the fountains of water in the land of Shinar. And they built it: forty and three years [1645-1688 A.M.] were they building it; its breadth was 203 bricks, and the height (of a brick) was the third of one; its height amounted to 5433 cubits and 2 palms, and (the extent of one wall was) thirteen stades (and of the other thirty stades). And the Lord our God said unto us: Behold, they are one people, and (this) they begin to do, and now nothing will be withholden from them. Go to, let us go down and confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech, and they may be dispersed into cities and nations, and one purpose will no longer abide with them till the day of judgment.’And the Lord descended, and we descended with him to see the city and the tower which the children of men had built. And he confounded their language, and they no longer understood one another’s speech, and they ceased then to build the city and the tower. For this reason the whole land of Shinar is called Babel, because the Lord did there confound all the language of the children of men, and from thence they were dispersed into their cities, each according to his language and his nation. And the Lord sent a mighty wind against the tower and overthrew it upon the earth, and behold it was between Asshur and Babylon in the land of Shinar, and they called its name ‘Overthrow’. In the fourth week in the first year [1688 A.M.] in the beginning thereof in the four and thirtieth jubilee, were they dispersed from the land of Shinar.

BabelAndra källor

3 Baruch beskriver diverse straff för människor beroende på deras övertramp, däribland initiativtagarna till Babels torn som ju samlade alla människor till att kämpa mot Gud. Inte ens under barnafödande slapp kvinnor ifrån sin uppgift att bränna tegel, utan de fick bära det nyfödda barnet i förkläde medan de fortsatte med sitt jobb. En slags borr var tänkt att användas för att bryta sig igenom himlavalvet, då de var osäkra på om valvet var av lera, mässing eller järn, men det var då som Gud avbröt deras planer.

Greek Apocalypse of Baruch, 3:5–8:

”Those who gave counsel to build the tower, for they whom thou seest drove forth multitudes of both men and women, to make bricks; among whom, a woman making bricks was not allowed to be released in the hour of child-birth, but brought forth while she was making bricks, and carried her child in her apron, and continued to make bricks. And the Lord appeared to them and confused their speech, when they had built the tower to the height of four hundred and sixty-three cubits. And they took a gimlet, and sought to pierce the heavens, saying, Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of brass, or of iron. When God saw this He did not permit them, but smote them with blindness and confusion of speech, and rendered them as thou seest.

Även den judiska historiken Flavius Josefus nämner Babels torn, och bekräftar att det handlar om ett rebelliskt bygge på uppdrag av tyrannen Nimrod. Josefus säger att tornet var bredare än dess höjd, och mer byggt som ett berg än ett torn. Den grekiske historiken Herodotus nämner en mäktig ziggurat och ger den enorma dimensioner. Midrash nämner att toppen av tornet blev bränd, att området längst ner försvann ner i marken samt att mellanpartiet stod kvar ett tag men eroderades ner med tiden. Det går även att läsa uppgifter om tornet genom Cornelius Alexander (frag. 10), Abydenus (frags. 5 and 6) och Sibylline Oracles (iii. 117–129), Isidore, samt i Schoyen samlingen (The Tower of Babel Stele, etc. (Wikipedia)

Det är möjligt att platsen för tornet skulle kunna vara Eridu som en gång låg invid persiska viken där man hittat resterna av en gigantisk ziggurat med bitumen som murbruk (se David Rohl). Det finns gott om flodberättelser inom olika kulturer och folkgrupper runt hela världen, och även en del berättelser som handlar om byggandet av ett enormt högt torn samt språkförbistring. (Sök gärna själv på internet.) Det finns exempelvis en sumerisk berättelse som handlar om Enmerker av Uruk (Erik) som bygger en enorm ziggurat i Eridu med hjälp av byggmaterial från Aratta. Berättelsen nämner även språkförbistringen och en bön om att återfå ett enda språk för folkgrupper. Ett annat exempel är berättelsen om sydamerikanska Montezuma (Moctezuma på engelska), som innehåller en global flod, språkförbistring, närapå utrotning av djur och människor, rebelliskhet mot Gud, gemensam byggnad av ett jättehögt torn som når himlen, den Stora Anden som förstör det med åsknedslag, etc.

Lucifer ville ta Guds plats ovanför himlavalvet

Lucifer ville i sin stolthet placera sin tron ovanför Guds tron som Bibeln säger är ovanför molnen och stjärnorna, vilket innebär strax ovanför himlavalvet. Enligt 1 Mosebok så är stjärnor, sol och måne placerade i/på (inte ovanför) himlavalet, och Guds tron är alltså placerad direkt ovanför det. Jes. 40:11 förklarar vidare att när Gud sitter/vandrar/tronar på himlavalvet så ser människorna ut som gräshopper från Guds (eller människosonens) perspektiv. Det handlar alltså inte om att se ner från en gigantisk yttre svart rymd, utan från en plats just ovanför molnen. Job 22:12 nämner också att Gud ser ner på stjärnorna när han vandrar på himlavalvet.

Is. 14:12 Hur har du inte fallit från himlen, du strålande stjärna, du gryningens son!
Hur har du inte blivit fälld till jorden, du som slog ner folken till marken!
13 Du sade i ditt hjärta:‘Jag skall stiga upp till himlen, ovanför Guds stjärnor skall jag upprätta min tron. Jag skall sätta mig på mötesberget längst upp i norr.14 Jag skall stiga upp över molnens höjder, jag skall göra mig lik den Högste.’

Hes. 1:22 Över väsendenas huvuden syntes något som liknade ett himlavalv, likt underbar kristall, utspänt över deras huvuden.   —25 Och en röst hördes från himlavalvet över deras huvuden där de stod stilla med sänkta vingar.26 Ovanför valvet över deras huvuden syntes något som liknade en tron gjord av safirsten. På det som liknade en tron satt en gestalt som såg ut som en människa.

Gen. 1:14 Gud sade: ”Varde på himlavalvet ljus som skiljer dagen från natten!” De skall vara tecken som utmärker särskilda tider, dagar och år, 15 och de skall vara ljus på himlavalvet som lyser över jorden.” Och det skedde så. 16 Gud gjorde de två stora ljusen, det större att härska över dagen och det mindre att härska över natten, likaså stjärnorna. 17 Han satte dem på himlavalvet till att lysa över jorden,

Job 22:14 Molnen bildar en slöja så att han inte ser, och på himlavalvet vandrar han.

Jesaja 66:1 Så säger Herren: Himlen är min tron och jorden min fotapall. Vad för ett hus kan ni bygga åt mig, vad för en plats där jag kan vila?

Jes. 40:22 Han är den som tronar över jordens rund, och dess inbyggare äro såsom gräshoppor; han är den som utbreder himmelen såsom ett flor och spänner ut den såsom ett tält att bo inunder. /1917

Is. 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth  (KJV)

Läs på engelska om ”circle of the earth” från Jes. 40:22 här och på svenska om Joshuas långa dag/solen som stod still här.

CIRCLE of the earth – not a ball, globe or sphere – Is. 40:22

flat earth”CIRCLE of the earth” – Isaiah 40:22

If you want to prove that the earth is a globe based on the Bible, you must use another verse than Isaiah 40:22 since this verse does not say it. There are at least three main problems with this verse if you want to use it to prove a globe – the circle, the grasshoppers and the tent …

Is. 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a TENT to dwell in

Frisbees and dinner plates are shaped like circles, and circles are indeed round. A circle is not the same as a globe, a ball or a sphere, even if a ball can look like a circle if viewed in only one dimension.

”Circle” in the above verse is a translation from the Hebrew noun chug (Strong’s 2329) which means circle, vault or horizon. (Note that it is not translated as ball or sphere.) Apart from the above verse, it is found twice more in the Bible. In Job 22:14 we can read about God walking on the circle/vault of heaven (walking on the firmament of heaven), and in Proverbs 8:27 we can read that this circle was inscribed into the face of the deep. KJV phrases it as ”when he set a compass upon the face of the depth”. A ball does not have a side that could be considered ”a face”, but a flat earth does. NKJV phrases it as ”When He drew a circle on the face of the deep”. It is hard (or rather impossible) to draw a sphere or a globe into something, but it is definitely possible to draw/inscribe a circle into something.

Job 22:14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven. (KJV)

Proverbs. 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, (NKJV)

Note above that it would not make sense to draw ”a globe” on the face of the deep. Compare also:

Job 26:10 He has inscribed a circle (Strong’s 2328) on the surface of the waters At the boundary of light and darkness. (NASB)

flat earth.jpeg

A circle of ice compassing the waters, under a firmament?

The above noun (chug) is connected to the Hebrew verb with the same name spelling chug (Strong’s 2328), which means to draw around, to make a circle. It is only found in Job 26:10 where we can read that God has inscribed a circle on the surface, or (as in KJV) ”compassed the waters”.

Isaiah 40:22 further suggests that when God sits on this circle (the firmament) the inhabitants look like grasshoppers. This requires a certain elevation, which works well with a physical firmament placed high over a round earth. An elevation is also implied in Job 22:12 where we can read: “Surely God is at the zenith of the heavens [shamayim] and looks down on all the stars, high as they are.” Note that it says that God ”looks down” on the stars when he sits, or walks around, on the firmament. 

tent.jpgThe morning star (Lucifer) wanted to exalt his throne above the stars of God, and he is not talking about the top of the universe but above the heights of the clouds. This is where he imagined the throne of God to be – above the clouds. The throne of God is indeed described to be just above the firmament in the sky, and based on the creation account in Genesis the stars were placed in the firmament.

Is. 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Ez. 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

Gen. 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

The same verse (Is. 40:22) also uses the analogy of the heavens stretched out as a curtain and spread out as a TENT to dwell in – for the inhabitants who look like grasshoppers. It is almost impossible to imagine the picture of a tent placed on a globe where all the inhabitants live in. It is a perfect analogy if we imagine a flat earth with a firmament over it, and especially if we also imagine the tabernacle during the Exodus.

While chug is not a translation for ball, there is however a word for ”ball” that Isaiah could have used if this is what he wanted to express, but he did not use it in the above verse. He did, however, use it in Is. 22:18 where ball is a translation from dur (Strong’s 1754):

Is. 22:18 18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a BALL into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord’s house.

footstool

With four corners/pillars

Isaiah also describes God as having the earth as a footstool. It is hard to picture God with a constantly moving and spinning ball under his feet, but the analogy works perfectly if we imagine the earth to be flat, with a firmament and with four pillars, plus naturally standing still.

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Other verses on the same subject

In the Bible the earth is described as immovable, standing on pillars, with a firmament above it, placed in the very center of God’s creation, and not as a moving object such as a spinning ball rotating at 1,000 mph while speeding away faster than a bullet around the sun at 67,000 mph. This is why people who believe the former should at least be respected rather than ridiculed. But does it not also say that the earth hangs upon nothing? How does this fit either model?

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Other translations use the word ”void”, which might make the reader think about the creation account and ”the earth was without form and void”. Maybe Job’s description concerns this moment in time when God has just created the earth, hanging it on nothing, proceeding to dividing the waters and connecting it on pillars? This verse does not work very well if we imagine a spinning ball rotating around the sun. Such a constantly moving ball does not hang still on anything and does not need pillars.

Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Ps. 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

The Bible speaks about four corners in quite a few verses, both regarding the entire earth and also regarding a particular land of the earth – like Israel. The land of Israel is not formed as a globe but can be imagined as flat. The expression of the four corners could be both real or used as an analogy if the writers want to express an entirety of something. See for example Acts 10:11 and 11:15 where Peter is shown a sheet knit at the four corners containing various beasts. Naturally this sheet must have been rather flat, and everything within the four corners were acceptable for Peter to eat. Likewise, the land of Israel is likened with four corners in Ez 7:2 even if it is not square-shaped as sheets are. Rev. 7:1 seems to be talking about the four corners of the earth as a physical reality, with four angels holding four winds.

Acts 10: 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: + Acts 11:5

Ez. 7:2 Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.

Rev. 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

See also this verse about the four corners, and note the word ”breadth” which is interesting:

Rev. 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.9 And they went up on the BREADTH of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The word ”breadth” above describes the surface of the earth, and not parts of the earth. The word is a translation from the noun πλάτος/platos (Strong’s 4114) and can be translated as width or broad plain. The corresponding adjective is πλατύς/platus (Strong’s 4116) which can be used as a description of a street as in Matt. 7:13 (flat and stretched out). The corresponding verb is πλάσσω/plassó (Strong’s 4111), which can be translated as form/mould. The French word ”plateau” signifies a level portion (or nearly level) of the earth’s surface. The French word derives from platel, which is a description of a flat object, like a plateIn Swedish the word for ”flat” is ”platt” (similar in other Germanic languages).

The Bible contains parables and analogies and even if they are not descriptions of real things/events (at least not always), they still signify something and are used for a reason. The author would like the reader to get a certain image in his/her head when reading analogies, poetry or parable. This means that we cannot disregard the analogies we do not like and/or highlight the ones we do like. According to the Bible, it seems like a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to the earth’s farthest bounds. Sure, it might be an exaggeration (or a hyperbole) but if the earth is a globe, why would the devil even need to take Jesus up to a high level?

Dan. 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth

Matt. 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them

All this does not mean that we have just proven that the earth is flat, but it certainly looks like the Bible claims that it is (with an honest reading), and particularly if we also read the book of Enoch.

Interestingly Wherner von Braun (the German aerospace engineer and space architect hired by NASA) put the the below psalm on his grave stone describing how the psalmist is in awe about God’s creation of the firmament which shows God’s handiwork:

Ps. 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

You can read about planets in the creation account here and you can read about the meaning of raqia (firmament) here.

Märstabon Hassan Zubier, hjälten från terrorattacken i Åbo, som erkänt bedrägeri

pengarSuperhjälten som var superbedragare

Om man själv erkänt brott, och om det finns domar från rättegångar, så handlar det inte om förtal att sprida uppgiften. Jag nämner personen vid namn eftersom det pågår insamlingar till hans ära, och det är orätt att människor lockas att skänka pengar till en person som de tror är ärlig men som är en stor bedragare och bluffmakare. Då nu Finlands radio och TV sprider dessa sanna uppgifter och hans erkännande (YLE, och de största finska nyhetstidningarna) så borde Sverige också göra det – men de är alldeles tysta. Tål inte nyheten att se dagsljus? Är den för stor? Leder trådar från honom till andra?

Med tanke på att svenska sociala medier redan startat censur gällande de finska länkarna, så kan jag inte lova att de kommer att fungera här. Jag skriver därför om innehållet.

Saken:

Hassan Zubier, Märstabo (Sigtuna kommun), flera gånger i framför allt lokaltidningar, omskriven som svensk superhjälte pga hans heroiska insatser under Åby terrorattack i augusti 2017 (hävdar även att han var med i Stockhoms terrorattack fyra månader tidigare) där han sagt sig försvara sin flickvän och hjälpt en skadad kvinna så till den grad att han blev knivattackerad och blev rullstolsbunden för livet. Därav ekonomiska ersättningar och insamlingar till honom. Det är också av detta skäl som nyheten om Hassan borde spridas. Många kan känna sig lurade över vetskapen att de skänkt/skänker pengar till en erkänd bluffmakare som erkänt sitt bedrägeri. Fler borde få veta så snart som möjligt så att ingen mer pengar skänks.

(Tillägg:) Här är Hassan på film där han ledigt svingar sina ben upp och ner från ett bord samt rör sig ledigt i rummet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqpEhwMFwSE

Fakta:

  • Enligt egna uppgifter så var Hassan med om två terrorattacker under 2017 – Stockholms terrorattack och Åbo terrorattack. Vid Stockholms terrorattack så säger Hassan att han arbetat som ambulansförare. Han var även dykinstruktör enligt egen uppgift. Han har nu erkänt att han förfalskat ett intyg från ett ambulansföretag för att lura till sig ekonomiska ersättningar. Han har även erkänt att han fört fram ett falskt bevis inför finsk domstol. Det har framkommit att han överhuvudtaget inte arbetat innan Åboattacken pga MS-sjukdom. Om han uppbär sjukpenning pga MS-sjukdom så kan han givetvis inte heller arbeta, och Hassan bekräftar för Yle att han just varit/är ”sjukledig” i Sverige. Vad stämmer? Hassan säger att han även har brittiskt medborgarskap, och om han arbetat i Storbritannien är förstås spekulationer.
  • Hassan säger sig ha fått nervskador för livet pga knivattacken i Åbo 2017, och har nu förlorat sin arbetsförmåga.
  • Hassan och hans advokat krävde över 160 000 euro av Statskontoret, men utgången blev 96.000 euro. Dessutom tilldömdes han en månatlig ersättning på 950 Euro till han fyllt 65 år, vilket blir drygt 200.000 euro ytterligare.
  • En kvinna i Österbotten har samlat in över 32.600 euro till Hassan. Kvinnan säger att hon bara startat kontot åt Hassan och sedan inte ens haft rättighet att logga in på kontot som Hassan helt ansvarar för. Hon säger att hon även kan bevisa detta.
  • Sigtunabygden (och UNT) nämner ovan insamling för svenska läsare.
  • Hassan har fått medalj av både Finland och England pga sin insats i Åbo
  • 2017 nominerades han till Aftonbladets Svenska hjältar, och han har träffat Sveriges kung och drottning pga sin heroiska insats.

Nedan finns källa till nyheten om bedrägeri, samt andra källor. (Vet inte hur länge länkarna kommer att fungera.)

https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2018/08/21/hassan-zubier-erkanner-att-han-forsokte-lura-till-sig-ersattningar-med-etthttps://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000005634351.html

https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000005721439.html

https://www.facebook.com/hassanzubierfinland

https://www.hbl.fi/artikel/ekonomiska-trangmal-bakom-bedrageriforsoket/

https://www.hbl.fi/artikel/zubier-insamlingen-inte-den-enda-problematiska-pa-natet/

http://www.unt.se/sigtunabygden/familj/han-visade-pa-ovanligt-mod-5049514.aspx

Lyssna på sommarprogram från honom själv där han ljuger friskt om sitt liv, och även berättar om Åbo terrorattack.

Hassan har, trots MS, visat att han kan förflytta sig helt obehindrat. Detta kan man se i nedan film som Hassan själv sänt live på Facebook under maj 2018 och filmen har idag nått ca 34 tusen visningar. Han har tidigare sagt att han ibland kan gå några meter åt gången, men det är märkligt att han kan resa sig, sätta sig och gå runt i rummet helt  obehindrat utan minsta tvekan. Om man bara kan gå några meter pga sjukdom så brukar det betyda att dessa steg tas långsamt och/eller med smärta tills man känner att man inte klarar mer. 

https://www.nykysuomi.com/2018/08/27/katso-video-hassan-loppuelama-pyoratuolissa-zubier-varsin-vetreana/

Ett par exempel vad finsk media skriver

Aamulehti (morgontidning i Tammerfors) :

  • Hassan har ingen licens i Sverige för att jobba som vårdare
  • När han berättade att han jobbat som fredsbevarare i Bosninen, så var det riktiga fredsbevarare som kunde konstatera att det inte fanns några trupper från Sverige vid den tiden i Bosnien (Se Hassans facebookinlägg på aamulehti-sidan).
  • När han fabulerat om tjänst i Afghanistan hade en Aamulehti-journalist frågat honom hur han kunnat ha tjänst som fredsbevarare när han finns i brottsregistret. Då hade Hassan erkänt att han ljugit, för att dölja att han varit i fängelse och för att ”skydda sig själv och sin flickvän”.
  • Hassan anlade en mordbrand på ett sjukhus år 2001 då han jobbade där som vakt. Sedan ”varnade” han ”heroiskt” de inneboende. Han fick åtta års fängelse.

https://www.hbl.fi/artikel/ekonomiska-trangmal-bakom-bedrageriforsoket/

https://www.aamulehti.fi/uutiset/turun-terrori-iskun-sankari-hassan-zubier-ei-ole-ensihoitaja-myontaa-myos-valehdelleensa-rauhanturvapalveluksesta-201155493/

Yle:

  • Hassan jobbade inte före Åbo. Han var sjukledig pga MS.
  • År 2000 satte han eld på sin egen bil p g a ett vredesutbrott. Han stal också pengar av sin arbetsgivare. 18.000 kr.
  • År 1998 blev han dömd för att ha gett falskt alarm
  • En insamlingssida startade den 27/12 2017. Mer än 600 personer har donerat mer än 32.600 Euro till just denna insamling.

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-10365841

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-10367312

***

Det är för övrigt en del konstigheter kring hans vittnesmål kring Åboattacken (som är märklig öht – se här) och man kan undra varför han bara nämner att han ”skyddat” sin flickvän, och inte nämner sin svärmor som var med och höll barnvagn med hans egen son? Han skyddade väl dem också? Eller passar inte versionerna ihop?

TILLÄGG: Som väntat blev den nyupptäckta filmen ovan, som visar Hassans obehindrade rörlighet, snabbt nedtagen. Men Hassan fick en del frågor om filmen från en journalist på en finsk kvällstidning. Exempel med översättning till svenska:

Zubier som utsattes för många knivhugg i terroristattacken i Åbo har förmågan att gå, något som väckt förvåning. Vi ringde upp Z och frågade vad för slags skador han har. 

Många som har sett videon har förundrats sig över hur du stiger upp från stolen och går och tänder ljuset. Hur skulle du beskriva dina skador?

– Enligt läkarna är jag invalid till 75 procent, börjar Z.

– Jag fick nervskador i ryggraden under attacken. Detta har föranlett att jag kan promenera endast några meter åt gången. Min förmåga att gå varierar från dag till dag, smärtan är vissa dagar större. Den rehabilitering jag fått efter attacken gör det möjligt att  promenera 5-10 meter åt gången, säger Z.

Många har trott att du är förlamad. 

– Jag har aldrig sagt att jag är förlamad – inte i en enda intervju, och inte i rätten. För att jag förmår promenera bara några meter åt gången och lider av nervvärk, måste jag använda rullstol i det dagliga livet. 

Z. berättade för Iltalehti i en specialintervju i december hur knivhuggarens första hugg var det mest ödesdigra, för det hugget skadade ryggmärgen. 

Här nedan finns en film som visar Hassan ett par dagar efter attacken då han befann sig vid Åbo torg och pratar med journalister. Inga sår eller skador syns någonstans trots att han enligt egen uppgift blivit knivhuggen 3-4 gånger i rygg och axel, vilket har lett till att han inte kan lyfta armen på nervskador. Men Hassan bär en armbindel.

Hassan berättar om sin sjukvårdsutbildning. Två veckor efter Åboattacken säger han att han tror att han med största sannolikhet kommer att förbli rullstolsbunden trots att han kan få tillbaka 10%:s rörlighet i benen.

Hassan säger att han har en ”avancerad sjukvårdsutbildning” (13 min):

Hassan har sagt till media:

”Vissa dagar kommer jag inte ur sängen på grund av smärtorna. Jag sover 3-4 timmar per natt på grund av smärtorna. Varje dag handlar om att kämpa.”

”Jag kommer inte kunna hoppa upp från rullstolen och springa, eller gå på toaletten som normalt igen.”

Expressen skriver ”I dag tar han sig fram med hjälp av en elrullstol och har nedsatt känsel från bröstet och neråt. Samtidigt har han svåra och allvarliga nervskador. ”

Hassan säger att han inte kan gå:

”- Jag kan stå men inte gå. Jag fryser hela tiden och nervvärken plågar mig dygnet runt. Jag kan inte sova mera än 3-4 timmar per natt. Jag kan inte känna om jag är kissnödig och jag har blivit tvungen att ställa in mobilen för att den ska påminna mig om att gå på toaletten.  Jag fick tillbaka känseln i min ena hand för bara tre veckor sedan. ….”

https://www.seiska.fi/Uutiset/Turun-terrori-iskun-sankari-Hassan-Zubier-vammautui-iaksi-En-pysty-kavelemaan-enka-tunne

I nedan artikel klagar han över hur illa Sverige behandlat honom. Samt att han inte längre kan jobba som ambulansförare och bara får 1100 euro i sjukpension.

Hassan tävlingskör båt 4 augusti 2018: