Arkiv | januari 2019

Creationist website Creation.com causes division among Christians due to FLAT EARTH

division-2Causing a division due to people believing the Bible?

(This article could just as well be focused on answersingenesisorg, but since creationcom used to be my favorite source for articles about creationism, I have chosen to use them as an example.)

The Bible tells us that division among Christian is something necessary, provided that it is due to the right cause. The right cause would be if someone (a brother or a sister among us) would be teaching something seriously contrary to the word of God with no desire to be corrected, and/or if someone in the Christian fellowship would be sinning without repenting.

Rom. 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Cor. 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Creationcom, on the other hand, works on another level. They have chosen to cause a division among Christians due to the issue of flat earth, and they call fellow Christians (flat-earthers) charlatans, blasphemous, antisemitic, and other insults (even comparing the flat earth view with Antichristians) which indicate that Creationcom could hardly be viewing any flatearthers as Christians. (Check their own sources.) How can you be a Christian if you work against the word of God, as Creationcom claims flatearthers do? If the authors on Creationcom are right, you cannot be a flatearther and a Christian at the same time – unless they believe that rebellious antisemitic charlatans can be Christians.

But does the Bible really claim that a person cannot be a Christian if he/she believes that the earth does not move, the sun and the moon temporarily stood still during Joshua’s day, there is a firmament/dome above the earth, this dome looks like a tent over the inhabitants on earth, there is water above this firmament, the whole earth construction looks like a footstool, there are four pillars under it, the earth has ends, the earth is described to have a side which is a ”face”, the sun is always described as the sun and never a star, the stars are created to be in/on the firmament/dome to be lights in connection to the earth and not for something else in a vast universe, stars are also described as falling down to earth while life on the earth continues to exist, the physical darkness is described as ”night” and never ”the universe” (dark), etc? 

Yea, hath God said … ?” (Satan in Gen. 3:1)

Is God mad at people who believe the above? Is your soul lost? Please answer this: Is it a deep SIN to believe the above? If you do believe it is a sin, why is it never described as such in the Bible? The Bible tells us that sinning is transgressing the law of God (1 John 3:4), but in what way do we break God’s commandments by believing the Bible’s own  description about the shape and construction of the earth? If the earth is a spinning ball in a vast universe, could this idea not be mentioned at least somewhere in the Bible? If you on the other hand do not believe it is a sin to believe the Biblical description about the earth, I do hope you show respect for those who believe the description as presented.

If you never went to school or had access to any sort of media, and all you had was nature itself and the Bible (which you could read), would you naturally come to the conclusion that you live on a constantly moving and spinning ball (approx 1000 miles/h) which speeds faster than a bullet in a vacuum-filled universe in an orbit around the sun, despite that stars can be found in the same spots night after night, century after century? For some reason the authors of the Bible do not provide this picture but the opposite, and what you feel and see (like a calm sea under a blue sky with clouds slowly passing across it) do not hint that heliocentrism is what you should trust in.

Or can we just say ”This is easy to resolve! Whenever the Bible speaks about these types of things, it must never be understood literally, and whenever poetry is used to describe the earth, just take it with a pinch of salt since it’s only poetry after all”? Is God the author of confusion? Is God not able to express himself in a way that we can understand? Did God not anticipate that honest Bible readers would believe the simple Bible descriptions about the creation, which are repeated throughout the Bible promoting a geocentric stationary flat earth model rather than heliocentrism?

Concerning judgments and insults towards those Christians who side with the Bible’s information about the geocentric model:

Matt. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

The strawmen presented by Creationcom

While the Bible lacks even one verse promoting the heliocentric model, it is replete with verses which show a geocentric model with a flat and stationary earth. Despite many articles from Creationcom, they have not been able to change this fact.

Creationcom has devoted lots of time and energy to attack the flatearth model, and since they have already been refuted on youtube channels such as My perspective, Dean Odle,  Celebrate truth, Woketown, Rob Skiba, P-brane, Paul on the plane, FlatEarthDoctrine, markksargent, Globebusters, jeranism, DITRH, Conspiracy music guru, etc, it is easier to go to these channels for information, which would also save me lots of time. (Still, I have written a few articles on the subject, and you can find them under the Flat earth label on the subject section on the right hand side.) Note that I do not agree with all things presented in these youtube channels (I even vehemently disagree with some), but the common denominator is that they describe the flaws of the heliocentric model, the lack of proof for a curvature, etc.

Creationcom proves with their articles that they have not done their proper homework to properly check the mainstream flat earth model, or else why would they ask for example ”On a flat earth, why shouldn’t southern hemisphere dwellers all see Polaris”? Had they studied the model they would already know the flat earth answer. This is not to say they would agree with it, but at least they would show that they are familiar with the ordinary flat earth responses. Had they done their homework, they would also know the  pattern of the setting/rising of the sun due to ordinary laws of perspective. The fact that they do not even understand the different time zones on a flat earth model is quite embarrassing for Creationcom, because this proves that they do not even know the basic  FAQ about the flat earth model. (A simple test with a dome shaped magnifying glass paper weight and a pen with UV led light show how light and dark areas appear under the dome.) They even reveal on their website that they do not even understand how circumnavigation works on a flat earth model, and this is embarrassing beyond belief. Should not Creationcom show a little more interest in the model they are set out to debunk? It is sadly common to avoid studying the views of the opponent and still attack imaginary views and strawmen. Read what the Bible says about this:

Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

It is very disturbing to realize that the writers on Creationcom are not even aware of that The flat earth society is viewed as an opponent by mainstream flatearthers (a mutual feeling) and the founders may not even be flat earthers at all. It is therefore nothing but dishonest to use this organization against flat earthers. Would Creationcom themselves like to be judged based on organisations which they do not even side with? Should Christians not avoid misrepresenting people?

Creationcom makes the ordinary claim that flatearthers read the Bible out of context, but despite large amounts of articles they have not been able to prove this claim. It rather seems like they themselves make the error of dodging Biblical information and scream ”poetry – disregard immediately!” whenever it suits them. The Biblical authors sometimes do use poetic language, and they have a purpose for doing this. The authors make a description of something and hope that the readers will get the picture/message. When we read about the earth being like a footstool to God, neither globearthers or flatearthers believe this to be a literally true. Still, we are presented with a picture and we are expected to draw a logical conclusion. Do we get the footstoolpicture of a God who sits on his throne with a constantly moving and rotating ball as a footstool? It is very hard, or even  impossible, to imagine this type of scenario. The Biblical flat earth model, however, is worked out based on the information in the Bible and it happens to look exactly like a footstool. A coincidence?

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.— 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

2 Pet. 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days SCOFFERS, walking after their own lusts,4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

The flat earth model – the model that promotes a Creator

Since the geocentric flat earth model promotes a CREATOR and GOD, it is hard to see how it could be of Satan. Satan would like to hide God and make a Creator unnecessary. Evolution, billions of years, heliocentrism, all help out to make both man and earth as tiny dots in a vast universe and where a Creator is not needed. Atheism is based on all these elements.

Loads of people have left atheism and become both creationists and even Christians due to the discovery about flat earth. See for example Conspiracy Music Guru’s confession how he left atheism:

Here are a few comments that I copied under just one flat earth video (I could have copied loads more). There is no reason to fear the great flat earth movement because people are coming to Christ:

Person 1: when I finally found it it blew my being to pieces and shattered all my preconceived ideas. But it took a personal encounter and I had to get to the end of myself to be willing to give it a go. That was way way back in time but I havent walked away from it since…..

Person 2: when I found out about the flat earth that was a rollercoaster ride for me mentality lol going from a atheist to believing a creator, I definitely don’t rule out the bible not at all, it’s early days for me iv only been a flat earther for a year

Person 3: i was atheist before coming to FE

Read about Nate Wolfe, a pastor of almost 7 1/2 years who was FIRED for believing in flat earth, despite that he never talked about it to his church or congregation. His youtube channel is Firedfortruth. Is not Creationcom and other organisations/people who demonize the flatearth belief part of the problem?

The sad thing is that the writers on Creationcom are so convinced that they are on the good side when they spend time fighting against innocent Christians who prefer to believe the word of God as it is presented.

Read a list of Bible verses which support a geocentric flat earth model here, the firmament as something visible and solid here, the circle of the earth, here, planets in the creation account here.

Torben Søndergaard, should praying for kids and performing miracle cures be illegal?

Danish TV is attacking a man who follows the Bible?

Danish TV seems to automatically deem a person with the gift of healing as a lying con artist, and that is likely the outlook of Swedish TV and mainstream media as a whole. Sadly also many Christians side with this idea, despite that the Bible encourages us to use all the spiritual gifts offered to us. Other Christians might very well be aware of that healing and speaking in tongues are examples of spiritual gifts which still apply, but they still prefer to distance themselves from Torben because of the controversial aspect of the matter, and for not wanting to be attacked as well due to association. They should rather be on his side, comforting him, because these attacks naturally made him very sad. What is the point of letting Torben’s enemies be heard in the films about him, as though their judgments are true, and with no chance for Torben to defend himself?

One misunderstanding about healing is that the person with this gift can absolutely not make any sort of theological errors (or commit any sins) because this would automatically mean that the miracles are fake. This is not a required correlation. A person with spiritual gifts does not lose his free will, and he/she must strive to avoid mistakes and sins just like all Christians. Moreover, being blessed with spiritual gifts does not automatically mean that the person will endure to the very end. Judas Iscariot, disciple of Jesus, is an example of that. Fortunately, Torben speaks out against sin more than most preachers, and never forgets to highlight the requirement of true repentance.

The Bible nowhere claims that the spiritual gifts, such as healing and speaking in tongues, would cease before the coming of Christ. They are great tools for us to use, and Satan would be more than happy to make Christians afraid of using the gifts so that he can be more powerful. Despite that the Bible also encourages us to cast out evil spirits, Christians are afraid to do so. Danish TV and others have chosen to demonize those who cast out demons.

Unfortunately Youtube has recently been pressed to conform to Satan’s desires, and Christians who pray for people’s sicknesses might now be in trouble. There is always a risk that a person who does not get healed, will step forward and charge Torben for his actions. The first step to limit Christian freedom is on Youtube, but will it end there? Will it be illegal to pray for children and teenagers (or anyone) in the future?:

”YouTube’s recommendation algorithm suggests new videos for viewers, but some genres of videos, especially conspiracy videos, have been criticized for their frequent appearance in those recommendations. The company’s new policy will cut back on recommendations of “content that could misinform users in harmful ways,” YouTube said in a Friday memo. It cited three specific conspiracy theories affected by the new policy: Flat Earth theories, miracle cures, and 9/11 trutherism.”
/Daily Beast

More and more people have come to the understanding that 9/11 was an inside job, so naturally politicians must try to avoid criticism by using censorship. More people have also been converted to the flat earth movement, and apparently it is so dangerous that they must be silenced. It is a well known fact that Youtube and Google do NOT like criticism of official terror stories, and do not want people to expose them as false flags or psy ops.

(Do read Cody Snodgres’ e-book ”OCB Choosing the light”, or check if one of his interviews can still be seen on youtube. He was first offered to bomb the Murray Building in Oklahoma city but rejected the job, thinking that he would be the patsy. He also exposes the dark secrets of the shadow government, and how easily people on the streets can be fooled by orchestrated fake events.)

Luk 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils

Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Mark. 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

Was the apostle Paul, or Saul, a murderer?

evil eyesDid Paul kill someone before he was converted?

There is no evidence for that Paul actually killed someone in his life, but he was still acting violently in his goal to pursue his religion which he had adapted to a Pharisaic variant where he was actively searching for converted Jews with the aim to get them imprisoned.

Paul first enters the Biblical scene with his original name Saul (later changed to Paul by Jesus himself), and this is when he consented to the stoning (to death) of Stephen in Acts 7-8. Paul did not participate in the stoning itself, but he did not decline to guard the clothes of those who did – which means that they trusted him in the matter, and he was on their side.

Consenting to someone being killed/sentenced to death (or ”capital punishment”) is not the same as being a murderer himself. If that were the case, loads of people would be charged for being murderers even today, and Paul would just be one in a crowd.

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul.59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

So Saul caused mayhem in the church, and he entered into houses and caused people to end up in prison. Below we can also see that he was breathing threats and murder against them, but we still do not have any actual evidence that his violent treatment caused anyone to be killed. He did not hesitate to cause converted Jews to be brought bound to Jerusalem because of their (as he thought) incorrect belief – but this does not necessarily mean that anyone ended up being killed. Maybe there would be an increased risk of this if he had been able to pursue all his plans, but he was stopped by the famous vision of Jesus on his way to Damascus. 

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

So Saul/Paul was halted in his plans and chose not to pursue them after being converted. It is not certain that his aim even was to get Christians killed, but he definitely wanted to prevent them from maintaining their faith and spreading their faith to others – through all means possible.

Even if there is no evidence for that Saul/Paul actually killed someone, was he not a murderer in heart since he approved of the stoning of Stephen, and probably would not mind if even more converted Jews were stoned to death?

1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

It is true that whoever hates his brother is a murderer and is therefore not saved, but this is a different matter than the subject of whether Paul actually killed someone physically. There are people who store hatred in their hearts towards others but who have not killed anyone physically whether directly or indirectly, and who might even refuse to do so if they had a chance. They would therefore not be considered murderers. (Likewise, not all people would consider someone a murderer just because he/she votes for capital punishment in his country.) God will nevertheless one day judge our hearts on judgment day, and the key question is if we have repented for our sins or not.

We can get some more information about Paul:

Phil. 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

1 Cor. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

Acts 9:21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

Blood of JesusPaul repented for his past sins and left the old man behind

Paul was converted, and when Ananias placed his hands on him and prayed for him, he was healed from his blindness and was filled with the holy Ghost:

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. — 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Just because Paul was ”chosen” vessel does not mean he had no choice in the matter. Jesus might have chosen him because he understood that Paul would respond positively to the task, and because Jesus wanted his help to spread the gospel to the gentiles and to shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake”. (I. e. Paul would get a similar treatment to the one that he himself had chosen to give others.) Remember the parable in Matt. 22 about the wedding feast for the King’s son, and where those who chose to go (and chose to dress properly) were called the chosen ones, rather than those on the guest list (list with invitations) who declined to go:

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision

When Paul was converted, he changed his way of thinking and left the old man behind. He walked the talk, and the man who wrote most letters in the New Testament was no hypocrite. Paul expected the followers of Jesus to have a pure heart and a good conscience, and he admitted that he was formerly a blasphemer and persecutor of the church.

1 Tim. 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,—12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;13 Who was BEFORE a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul acted the way he did because he thought it was the right thing to do. He acted ignorantly in unbelief. This can be compared to situations where a sinner is fully aware  that his deeds are evil (perhaps through stealing from someone else, or perhaps through being involved in adultery and lies) and his own conscience confirms it. The sinner might not want to be treated the same way that he himself treats others, and this is evidence of a sinful heart. This is how God will judge our hearts:

Rom. 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Many Christians misunderstand Rom. 7 as though Paul is speaking about his life as a converted Christian, even though he is only expressing the thoughts of someone (like himself) left to himself under the law. In Rom. 7 he says for instance:

Romans 7:14 But I am carnal, sold under sin

And in the following chapter he claims that those who are carnal will reap DEATH – which would include himself, unless he changed his life style:

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is DEATH 

It is absolutely clear that Paul did in fact change his life style and expected fellow Christians to avoid sin just like he did:

I Cor. 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and SIN NOT

Romans 6:Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. — 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.-—   — 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness?  — 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.—:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.— 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Paul claimed that he (and his two coworkers) were holy, just and unblameable (which is the same as being ”perfect”), and he also claimed to have lived ”in all good conscience before God until this day”. A person who sins evidently does not live with a good conscience.

1 Thess. 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how HOLILY and JUSTLY and UNBLAMEABLY WE BEHAVED OURSELVES among you that believe:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory

Acts 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I HAVE LIVED IN ALL GOOD CONSCIENCE BEFORE GOD UNTIL THIS DAY.  

Acts. 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men. 

2 Cor. 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2 Tim. 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with PURE CONSCIENCE, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day

Platt jord / rund jord eller både och? Frågor, svar, argument och exempel

mapVarför fråga ”VARFÖR?” när man inte vill höra svaren?

Eftersom plattjord fortsätter att vara ett kärt samtalsämne på sociala medier, och eftersom plattjordkonferenser fortsätter att sprida sig globalt (?) med ökad närvaro, så fortsätter även jag att skriva om ämnet. Det är främst tio RÅD som jag skulle vilja ge alla som inte är plattjordare för att de inte ska slösa bort sin tid.

Här nedan skriver jag ”han” i stället för han/hon. 

  1. Fråga inte hur i all världen det kommer sig att en person kan tro på en plattjord år 2019 om du är ointresserad av att höra svaren och argumenten. Om du inte vill höra svaren eller länkarna som presenteras apropå dina frågor och kommentarer, så ställ inte frågorna. Bli inte upprörd om du ställer frågor om platt jord och någon svarar och/eller korrigerar dina missförstånd om plattjordmodellen. En person som blivit plattjordare har investerat timmar i research innan sin nya övertygelse, så självklart kan han inte förklara varför för dig via tre meningar på sociala medier. Om du dessutom bestämt dig för att inte intressera dig för FE-länkar (trots dina egna frågor), så är loppet kört. Du kommer ingen vart. 

2) Tro INTE att du ska kunna framföra motargument (mot en plattjord) som plattjordaren aldrig hört förut. Sannolikheten är väldigt liten. Att ta steget till att bli en kontroversiell plattjordare är förstås enormt (många är kvar i garderoben pga det stora hånfulla motståndet) så utgå ifrån att plattjordaren du talar med redan har studerat ämnen såsom fartyg som försvinner i horisonten, gamla grekers åsikter, coriolis-effekten, GPS, gravitation, månlandningen, eventuella kanter att trilla ner ifrån, Antarktis, möjligheten att flyga jorden runt, bibelverser (poesi eller inte), satelliter, propaganda, hur många som kan bevara en hemlighet, etc. Förvänta dig INTE att plattjordaren, efter att ha hört dina motargument, ska utbrista:

”Men oj, DET du säger har jag aldrig hört eller läst förut! Det du tar upp här är något helt nytt för mig och något som jag aldrig reflekterat över. Du är den första som fört fram det här argumenten och den frågeställningen! Nu känner jag att jag måste studera mer om det du säger eftersom jag inte hade en aning om de här sakerna. Dessutom säger du att det är urlöjligt och nästan sinnessjukt att tro på en plattjord? Wow, det hade jag ingen aning om att folk trodde …. ! Tänka sig ändå. Ja, nu måste jag verkligen tänka om.”

Glöm aldrig att de motargument som du för fram har en gång i tiden använts just av den plattjordaren du samtalar med. Han har en gång i tiden varit i dina skor, gått i liknande skolor, tänkt på samma sätt och känner därför till alla dina argument samt vad du tycker om plattjordare i allmänhet. Du behöver alltså inte undervisa honom om vare sig en klotjord eller plattjord eftersom han redan känner till argumenten. Återigen, för några år sedan så resonerade han precis som du. Det är snarare DU som inte känner till plattjordargumenten, och det är därför du som behöver studera länkar så att du kan göra din hemläxa. Ta en paus från att servera länkar till plattjordaren som redan hört sådana argument hundra gånger förut, och studera själv länkar som serveras dig. Skillnaden mellan dig och plattjordaren är att han nu inte bara känner till klotmodellen (sannolikt bättre än du) utan även plattjordmodellen. Du däremot känner bara till den ena sidan, och du kanske bara skrapat lite på ytan vad gäller plattjordmodellen.

Försök att förstå att plattjordaren startat loppet mycket tidigare än dig och ligger framför dig i spåret. Det betyder inte att han är mer intelligent än dig, eller att han automatiskt har rätt, men det betyder att han har ett stort försprång eftersom han är mer påläst om sin egen modell och motargumenten till modellen. 

3) Om du är kristen så ska du inte kräva att plattjordaren ska ljuga och säga ”Jag tror inte på en platt jord” om det inte överensstämmer med hans riktiga uppfattning. Gud vill inte att vi ljuger. Om en person har en sann övertygelse (felaktig eller ej), så når du inte hans hjärta genom att håna och förlöjliga honom. Inte heller Jehovas vittnen eller mormoner borde behandlas respektlöst.  

4) Om du anser att det finns en slags fara med att vara Plattjordare så är det av största vikt att du tänker på Jak. 5:19-20. Där kan vi läsa:  Mina bröder, om någon bland er kommer bort från sanningen och någon för honom tillbaka, 20 så skall denne veta att den som återför en syndare från hans villoväg frälser hans själ från döden och överskyler många synder.” Du bör alltså som kristen ha ett intresse att föra denna person, som du anser är i fara, tillbaka till ljuset. Var då vis genom att studera plattjordmodellen så att du har tillräckligt med kött på benen för att kunna hantera hans argument. Om du inte tror att personen är i fara för sig själv eller för andra så behöver du förstås inte ta det steget. 

5) Försök förstå att det är totalt slöseri med tid att förklara hur naiva, idiotiska, verklighetsfrånvända och urlöjliga plattjordare är. De vet redan att du känner så. För inte så länge sedan hade de samma uppfattning om plattjordare. De blev inte plattjordare för att de skulle bli populära, utan de klev ut ur garderoben trots att de visst att det skulle innebära hån, förlöjligande, skratt, hat, förolämpningar, förlorade vänner, förtal, och domar om att de är förtappade. Tror du att du kan få en plattjordare att återgå till klotteorin genom att håna och förlöjliga honom samt använda förolämpningar med utropstecken? 

6) Inse att det endast finns två sätt att föra plattjordaren tillbaka till det ljus som menar att du står i. a) Bevisa att jorden är ett klot/har en krökning, och/eller 2) Motbevisa Plattjordmodellen.

För att kunna lyckas med ovan så kan du i punkt a inte använda dig av NASA som källa eftersom en av Plattjordarens poänger är att de är bluffmakare (vilket är ett bevisat faktum även om man inte tror att jorden är platt), och när det gäller punkt b så MÅSTE du ta reda på vilka argument som plattjordaren har! I nästan samtliga fall som jag sett bland debatter så vill de globtroende gärna hoppa över den biten. De kanske anser att det är onödigt att studera plattjordargument eftersom de ändå är fel, eftersom de känner sig säkra på vilka argumenten är och ännu mer säkra på att de med lätthet kan bevisa motbevisa argumenten. De visar då ofta sin okunskap genom att presentera halmgubbar (såsom websidan creationcom). Försök också att INTE tillskriva plattjordare åsikter de inte har. Detta är tröttsamt och beror sannolikt på att plattjordare vägrar att undersöka FE-material.

Många hävdar t o m att ”Jag känner till plattjordargumenten mycket väl” och/eller ”Jag har studerat plattjordargument i flera år och vet mycket väl vad de tycker”, och/eller ”Jag har också trott att jorden är platt precis som du, men sen förstod jag att jag hade fel”, etc. Sen kanske det inte går mer än det första inlägget innan de bevisar att de inte känner till ens grundargumenten för plattjordmodellen. Försök att förstå att personer blivit plattjordare pga att de blivit övertygade om vissa argument. Om du negligerar dessa argument och inte bryr dig om att ta reda på vilka de är, så kan du heller inte komma någon vart i debatten. Hur ska du kunna hjälpa en person att se hålen i sina argument om du inte ens känner till vilka de är? En diskussion på sociala medier skrapar bara på ytan. Plattjordaren kan inte göra din hemläxa, eller på bara några rader ska bevisa eller övertyga dig om att jorden är platt. Om du har tid att engagera dig i en diskussion om plattjord på sociala meder, så bör du också lägga lite tid på att förstå deras modell och argument.  

7) Om du ger dig in i en debatt med plattjordare så kommer du få många gillatryckningar av medsinnade, men är du där för ryggdunk eller för att försöka föra någon från mörker till ljus? Om du inte bryr dig om att studera motståndarens argument så blir ditt tal endast en predikning för redan övertygade. Plattjordare kommer du INTE att övertyga om du bestämt dig för att inte förstå deras modell. 

8) Om du vill lära dig om plattjordmodellen så bör du vara så pass ärlig med dig själv att du går direkt till källan – som är hos plattjordare. Om du i stället väljer att gå till MOTSTÅNDARE till plattjordare för att förstå plattjordmodell så ökar risken markant att du får felaktiga upplysningar eftersom motståndarna kanske inte har vare sig kunskap eller intresse att förklara plattjordmodellen på rätt sätt. De kanske kör med halvsanningar, de kanske insinuerar att plattjordare inte har svar på vissa frågor/argument som plattjordare VISST har svaren på om du bara sökte upp plattjordarna i stället för deras motståndare. Skulle du själv uppskatta om något går till dina motståndare (personer som kanske inte alls tycker om dig) för att få en bedömning om dig och dina åsikter? Om du inte går till källan direkt, vad är du rädd för?

9) Om du känner till plattjordmodellen och argumenten så vet du också att Flat Earth Society anses vara motståndare till de klassiska plattjordarna. Även Flat Earth Society har samma avsersion mot plattjordare. Att citera från denna organisation i en debatt med plattjordare är alltså självmål. 

10) Dra inte alla plattjordare över en kam som exempelvis websidan Creationcom gör, då de kallas charlataner, motståndare till Bibeln, antisemiter, eller andra generaliserande förolämpningar. Plattjordare kan ha olika åsikter sinsimellan precis som alla andra. Det som de har gemensamt är förstås att de inte tror på en snurrande glob som rusar i en bana runt solen. Det är även svårt, för att inte säga omöjligt, att hitta ateister bland plattjordare. Att nästan alla är skapelsetroende är inte detsamma som att vara kristen men väldigt många har gått från ateism till skapelsetroende/kreationist pga plattjordväckelsen, och en del hela vägen till bibeltroende kristna. 

Varför tror folk på en platt jord. Här är orsaken:

  1. Mark Sargent’s Flat Earth Clues här.
  2. Eric Dubay’s 200 proofs earth is not a spinning ball här
  3. Flat Earth man’s kanal Conspiracy music guru här
  4. My perspectives kanal här
  5. Samt jeranism, globebusters, DITRH, Rob Skiba, P-brane, celebrate truth etc

Vik en helg för att kolla in kanalerna. En del är på kristen grund, men andra inte (snarare motsatsen). När du gjort det så har du svaret på varför folk tror på en plattjord (oavsett om du håller med eller inte). Det ökar chansen för att du kan ha respekt för människor med en annan tro.

Se även:

Lista med argument för en platt jord på svenska här.

List of Bible verses, supporting geocentrism and a flat earth, här

Support for sin in a Christian chat room

sinnerSinning is normal and inevitable = the teaching of many Christians

A few weeks ago I visited a Christian chat room for the first time in ages, but I only managed to stay for about 5 minutes due to the atmosphere. Even though it was a long time ago since I entered a Christian chat room, I still felt as though it was ”the same old” support for sin which I remember too well from past discussions. It was a sad experience to realize that we have not reached anywhere in all these years, and I am particularly thinking about babies in Christ which might enter the chat room and learn that the cross they must carry is super light and that there are no requirements for salvation apart from ”believing” in Jesus. Oh, and also that they can never lose their salvation (if they sin too extensively they were not saved to begin with ….).

I even discovered a user name which I remember from a long time ago (a very unusual one, so clearly the same person) and this person promoted sin,  that we cannot avoid it and that there are no consequences, just like he did years ago. Is it really that important to spend time teaching people that sinning is inevitable? If this would be true (that we always sin in thoughts, words and deeds) will we not sin regardless of the preaching? Or is it important to feel ”sorry” for the sins – that we cannot help doing in the first place?

Still, there seems to be ONE sin that can make us lose salvation after all (even if these Christians claim we cannot) and this would be if we teach that there is something we must DO to stay saved. The believe this is legalism and something that God hates, but does God really hate the teaching that we can successfully obey him and be faithful to him? Is this really the only sin that makes him furious and which will put our salvation in jeopardy?

If we sin (and also Christians can choose to sin), we must confess our sins and repent. This means a change of mind and to turn away from sin. We are not provided with only one chance to get it right, but if we constantly sin we are not saved.

I will list some examples below of what I heard in this chat room during my short visit (not all the comments were addressed to me) and I will also make some comments.

He promised to never leave us! Did he lie?

Reply: Please check the context of this expression. Sure, God will never leave us or forsake us, but we can certainly choose to leave and forsake him. In such a case we have separated ourselves from him (Is. 59:2) because sin continues to lead to death – and if we deny Jesus, he will deny us (Matt. 10:33). Remember that it was Satan who lied and taught that sin does not lead to death. Even if we do forsake him, he will always stand there with open arms, hoping we will return to him as the prodigal son did. Remember that the prodigal son was ”lost and dead” while being away from his Father. Also, think about the covenant between God and Israel which was declared to be forever but which became void because of Israel’s behavior. It is best for us if we make sure to remain in the vine (John 15), because then we will never be forsaken but loved. God does not promise to never forsake us unconditionally, (which would go against a large portion of the Bible).

You are asking him to get back on the cross again!

Reply: No, Jesus died once and for all. and this does not mean we are now free to sin without any consequences. Jesus does not have to step up and down the cross each time a person sins. The truth is that sin continues to lead to death, and we are certainly not living in lawlessness without any commandments to obey. Even if Jesus died for the sins of the world, this does not mean that all the sins of the world were/are automatically forgiven on the cross and that we were forgiven before we were even born. Jesus did his part (and what an offer that was!) and we must do our part. We are forgiven and cleansed when/if we repent from our sins, and it is always our past sins that are forgiven. Certainly not any future sins.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

We are SEALED until the day of redemption!

Reply: The verse says ”whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30). It can also be translated ”by whom you were sealed FOR the day of redemption”. A seal is a requirement but a seal can be broken. Where does the idea come from that a seal or mark cannot be tampered with or broken? The text does not say ”sealed and saved unconditionally all the way UNTIL the day of redemption no matter the conduct”. The Greek word sphragizó can mean seal, or set a seal upon, or mark with a seal. We are indeed uniquely ”marked” when we as christians have the Holy Spirit in our lives, and we are separate and different from those without this mark. See this blog article.

We can never be perfect!

Reply: Actually, we can. Jesus himself said: Matt: 5:48 ”Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect”. Let us not argue with Jesus.

We are saved by grace and not by anything we do!

Reply: We are indeed saved by grace, but this does not mean we are free to sin and that we do not have to do anything. Read also Eph. 2:10 where we can read that we must WALK unto good works that God has created for us. What happens if we do not?

We are created unto good works, prepared to walk in them! 

Reply: Right, see above. WE do the walking. Jesus does not do the walking for us or instead of us. If God would be responsible for making sure we have good fruit in our lives, then he would not fail once. We would never ever sin.

Salvation is a gift that can’t be earned!

Reply: Yes, salvation is a gift, and nothing we have earned, but who says that gifts cannot be neglected or thrown away?

We have been imputed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ!

Reply: The Bible does not say this. We can read about imputed righteousness, but not that we can be imputed with the righteousness of Jesus (or anyone else). ”Imputed” does not mean ”transferred”, but it rather means ”reckoned” or ”viewed as”. We can indeed be reckoned as righteous if we have chosen to repent for our sins and become cleansed in the blood of Jesus. Then we can be regarded as righteous because we are. We have not become 80% cleansed but 100%, and we remain clean as long as we stay away from sin. The Bible does not teach ”once righteous always righteous”, nor can we pretend that God the Father does not see our sins because the blood of Jesus hides his vision.

A few more common pro-sin arguments (even if I did not hear them in this particular chat room):

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us!

Reply: Before the popular verse of 1 John 1:8 we can also read less popular verses such as v. 6 ”If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth” and v. 7 ”But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin”. Please reflect on the conditions which are clearly described. Or do you sin around the clock? Is there not one minute a day when you can say that you have no sin?

No one is righteous according to Rom. 3:10!

Reply: Paul, who made the above statement that no one is righteous, called HIMSELF righteous, along with Silas and Timothy, and he constantly requested that people should avoid obeying their flesh. Romans 3:10-11 is a reference to a few psalms, and they must be read in context. In those psalms you will find references of people who are righteous as a contrast to those who are not (the foolish ones). Note that he says ”as it is written”, which means that we should check ”what is written” so that we will understand his reason for quoting these psalms in that particular moment. See more here.

We are saved by faith alone and not by works!

The Bible, however, says the exact opposite:

Ja 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.

Our sinful nature makes us sin!

Think again. The Bible does not teach that we have a sinful nature (which would be an excellent excuse for sinning). Not in Rom. 5, not in Psalms, not anywhere.