Ever been accused for believing in SINLESS PERFECTIONISM when you say you can obey Jesus?
When we say that it is possible to live a life free of sin, as Jesus commands, the cry is that we are teaching“sinless perfectionism.” What is ironic is that these people who cry this false charge do not discern that they are teaching the very thing they condemn!
They make the false assumption that when a soul is converted, he will NEVER, ever sin again. After convincing you of this false assumption, they then try to disprove the claim, which we never made in the first place! Then they will quote such passages as Heb. 12:6. They like the “chastise” passage, for this is their ‘proof’ that if a child of God never sins after being born again, then they can’t be chastised. They like to talk about sin, being saved in sin, stay in sin, and defend sin. They hope that you, the reader, will fall for their assumptions, and then try to convince you that you can’t be anything but a low down sinner for the rest of your life.
Now, let’s see who is really teaching ‘sinless perfectionism’. By pronouncing condemnation on us (claiming what we do not teach), they reprobate themselves. According to them:
- When you ‘accept’ Jesus, you are justified (forgiven).
- There was a magnificent transfer that took place, meaning Christ becomes your perfection because his ‘obedience’ was ‘transferred’ to you by faith.
- Because of number 2, your past, present AND ‘future’ sins are all covered once and for all.
- Because Jesus’ tract record is imputed to you, God is now blind to your conduct because of the blood of Christ. God can no longer see you who sins.
- All this is ‘positional,’ NEVER ’practical.’
It is interesting that Christ’s righteousness (“obedience imputed to you,” which the Bible does NOT teach) was magically transferred to you once you trusted in Him. You are now considered ‘sinless’ because all your past, present, and FUTURE sins are all forgiven. This means that your sins, even future ones you have not yet committed, can NEVER be charged against you no matter what your conduct afterwards.
PROBLEM 1: If this were true, THERE IS NO NEED FOR CHASTISEMENT! How can you be chastised over sins that the blood was supposed to have covered and God became morally blind to your conduct and future conduct when you accepted His Son? If all your FUTURE sins are already forgiven, what purpose would there be in any type of correction since God does not see you anymore, just His Son Jesus? Remember? God can’t see you sinning, He only sees Jesus! How can they accuse us of teaching ‘sinless perfectionism” since Christ is their PROXY? Does their teaching not EQUATE TO SINLESS PERFECTION? Isn’t this calling the kettle black?
These people teach that you sin every day in thought, word, and deed! They even go so far to say that temptation is sin to make sure you get it – that you were saved from nothing. What they are really telling you is that sinning is proof that you are saved and in the faith! How ludicrous! This kind of Gospel is nothing but a hoax coming from frauds and liars.
Let’s clear some things up. Those who believe we can live holy lives, as God commands, have never said:
1. That a Christian never sinned in his life time (“For all have sinned”:)
2. That a Christian doesn’t have the ability to sin after he is saved.
3. And that once a person is converted that he will be forced not to sin.
What is taught is that a person cannot have salvation without repentance (forsaking all sins). 2 Cor. 7:10-11.
Scripture also says,
“No one who abides in him [Jesus] keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.” 1 John 3:6
We are also told how we can know who is a child of God and who is a child of the devil.
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” 1 John 3:10
A ‘saint’ is characterized by walking a life of holiness. A ‘child of the devil’ is characterized by walking a life of sin.
IF a child of God should give into temptation and act upon it (sin), God’s word tells us we have an Advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). Notice it says IF. Sinning is not a foregone conclusion in John’s mind, nor was it in Jesus’ mind as well. (“Go and sin no more”). Paul says, “Awake to righteousness and sin not.”
PROBLEM 2: NOWHERE is Jesus said to be our PROXY. Where it concerns righteousness, we are told NOT TO BE DECEIVED in this matter.
“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he [Jesus] is righteous.” 1 John 3:7
So much for the fake proxy. One is considered righteous WHEN he does what is right, and when he does, he is considered righteous as Jesus is righteous. There was no magical transfer that took place.
The false gospel preached today is missing the element of REPENTANCE. Jesus told the disciples to preach REPENTANCE. Some would go so far to say that repentance is not part of the gospel! Jesus said,
“And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among ALL nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” Luke 24:47
Repentance is commanded by God to ALL men everywhere. (Acts 5:31; 11:18; 17:30-31; 20:21; 26:20; Ro. 2:4; 2 Ti. 2:25; 2 Pet. 3:9). (Repentance is NOT an apology for being sinful, nor being born with a ‘sinful nature,’ as they falsely teach!) What is repentance? Repentance is to sweep, scrape, scrub and cast out of doors all defilement of the heart IN ORDER to make it clean for the reception of the holy Spirit. (Matt. 12:43-45; Lk. 11:24-26; Acts 5:32). The holy Spirit is only given to those whoobey Him (Acts 5:32), not to those who continue in sin and hope God cleans them up later (as some suggest), which later never seems to come about until the day of physical death! Repentance can take a process of time (a season of “godly sorrow” until there is full repentance) or instantaneously. Repentance is not sorrow alone, it also involves a change of mind, inclinations and desires, which translates into a total change in character and conduct. (Mt. 3:8; Mk. 4:12; Lk. 8:15; Jn. 8:34; 8:36; Lk. 19:1-10; Acts 26:20; 2 Co. 6:1; 5:17; 1 Thess. 1:9; 2 Tim. 2:19; Titus. 2:11-12).
Repentance that is genuine is initiated by God through a crisis of conviction leading to a season of godly sorrow for sin. (Jn. 16:8; Acts 2:37; 4:8-10; 5:31; 11:18; 2 Co. 7:10). Biblical repentance from Genesis to Revelation is to “forsake” our wickedness, “purge” our heart of evil and SEEK the mercy of God. (Isa. 55:7; Jer. 26:13; Pro. 28:13; Jon. 3:8-10; Matt. 12:41; Lk. 15:11-32; Acts 3:19; 2 Co. 7:10-11; 2 Tim. 2:19; Jas. 3:7-10; 1 Pe. 4:1; Rev. 2:5; 2:16; 2:20-22; 3:3; 3:19)!
To dismiss repentance as not part of the gospel is very serious, for it nullifies reconciliation with God, and thus no conversion and no forgiveness. (Lk. 13:3; 24:47; Mk. 4:12; Acts 3:19; 2 Co. 7:10).
True repentance is a condition for salvation. (Mk. 1:15; Lk. 13:3; Acts 5:31; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; Ro. 2:4; 2 Co. 7:10; 2 Pe. 3:9).
(Thanks to Sandra)
Here is where you are being dishonest. When one calls you a sinless perfectionist it isn’t because a Christian can’t possibly ever sin again as in ability.
It’s because you believe if a Christian does sin once they lose their salvation unless they repent. The. You will say if a Christian sins more than once that isn’t true repentance and that person isn’t saved. So in your view, you can not sin more than once after salvation and stay saved thus we have sinless perfection to remain saved.
“Then they will quote such passages as Heb. 12:6. They like the “chastise” passage, for this is their ‘proof’ that if a child of God never sins after being born again, then they can’t be chastised.“
You mock this point but never refute it with your view. If a Christian sins once you would believe they are spiritually dead and long no longer saved. Hebrews says God only disciplines true sons. He doesn’t discipline non saved persons. So in your view God could never chastise you as well.
<<It’s because you believe if a Christian does sin once they lose their salvation unless they repent.
It's rather JESUS and the BIBLE that claim this, and I say Amen and quote the verses.
<<You will say if a Christian sins more than once that isn’t true repentance and that person isn’t saved.
More than once? No, that is not what I would say. It doesn't matter if the amount is one or 700, because if a person does not repent, he is not saved. It's the Bible which say this. The only other option is a license to sin, and that Satan was right for claiming "Ye shalt not surely die". Is this the side you're on?
<<You mock this point but never refute it with your view.
(The Hebr. verse). What is there to refute? My claim has never been that Christians can no longer sin after they are born again. King David was a man of God's own heart, and he committed a serious sin. Was he saved though, during his time in sin? No way. We can't serve two masters and still be saved.
<<If a Christian sins once you would believe they are spiritually dead and long no longer saved.
Not if he repents. But if this Christian sins regularly as in "sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting", he has clearly not truly repented since repenting involves a change of mind and to turn from sin.
Keep in mind that the first teaching of Jesus on earth was about REPENTANCE. He never taught once saved always saved, and that Christians can get away with sin. He said that if we won't carry our cross, we are not worthy to be his disciples. Remember also the story in Matt. 18 where a person was forgiven his debt (his sins) and still ended up in debt AGAIN due to not forgiving another person. We can never get away with a sinful heart.
Here is one massive problem with your view. You don’t interpret 1 John 3:6-9 in the present tense or habitual present tense view, you interpret it in the absolute view.
You view 1 John 3:6
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
You claim to say that you do not teach sinless perfect. You say that a Christian does have the ability to sin. But if you hold to that you contradict your self with 1 John 3:9
Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because his seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.
It says the Christian CANNOT sin because his seed remains in him, HE IS NOT ABLE TO SIN, because he has been born of God.
The above means if you hold to this absolute view as I see you do, you can not even allow even one sin after being saved. You can’t sin at all after salvation because you wouldn’t be able too.
As Christians we have an interest to avoid Bible contradictions. If we were to interpret the verse as though we lacked the ability to sin after conversion, we would suddenly have multiple verses which make no sense. Why would Paul and others write so many warnings to Christians around the world if they could not ever sin? Why would the devil try to trick us if he knew it was impossible?
We solve all those contradictions if we interpret the verse as though we can’t sin (it’s in fact impossible) IF we are lead by the holy Spirit.
Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
The promise is, that if we walk in the Spirit, we cannot sin. Walking in the Spirit and sinning are mutually exclusive It’s one or the other.
Even Jesus Christ could sin, and the fact that he could have sinned but chose not to, is what makes him our great Savior.
The issue with your view of Hebrews 12:6-8 is if one loses their salvation when they sin they no longer are a son. Hebrews says God only chastises sons. So if you are unsaved he won’t chastise you because you aren’t a son. So a sinless Christian could never be chastised. Also your view goes against all of corinthians where Paul acknowledges they are in many different sins but still considers them brothers, not that they aren’t saved.
If someone is a son or not is not always the issue, because in the parable of the prodigal son, he was still a son while being lost and dead. The context is important. Yes, God chastises a son, but don’t take for granted that this process will be successful. If the person repents, everything is alright again. Not if he doesn’t.
No, Paul never says in Corinthians that they are (if they sin) still saved brothers and sisters.
First of all using the prodigal son is a bad argument, in no way is it the same context or idea. Even one wanted to use the prodigal son, he never ceased to be a son, the father never disciplined him nor did the father punish him. The son went and wasted his inheritance and was about to starve. If anything this would be a Christian that apostates, not one that commits any kind of sin and losses salvation.
BUT it isn’t about Christians, it is a bout Jews that were wayward children coming who have wasted their inheritance and the older brother which you didn’t mention who by the way didn’t depart but stayed around are the Pharisees. Jesus called Jews the lost sheep of Israel.
Another point is Hebrews is speaking Christians
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
If the son disciplined was also not saved or actually a son why would it even mention after that If you are illegitimate you wouldn’t be disciplined?
I’m sorry but your rely falls short.
The prodigal son is a parable concerning finding what is lost, and Jesus offered a few other parables in this category. Again, what did it matter to the son that he was still a son when he was at the same time LOST and DEAD? In this parable the Father couldn’t discipline him because he was not even at home (and the parable is not about discipline). The son repented for his sins, and God does not punish people who repent. Moreever, Judgment day is not now but on the last day.
Again, disciplining/chastening are made on sons, but it is not certain that it’s successful.
Also Paul the apostle clearly rebuked Christians in Corinth multiple times over not repenting but still considered them Christians.
1 Corinthians 5
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church[b] whom you are to judge? 13 God judges[c] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
This is church discipline to a brother on the inside, in no way does it say he lost salvation but is disciplined until he repents. Also it’s to protect others in the church. Also don’t try to act like oh this was this persons only sin or it was just one and it was repented of. Corinthians is full of multiple sins they committed.
Also if you want to try to use another translation and claim he was a “so called” brother you’d be wrong. In the Greek there is no “ so called brother “ onomazomenos means to give a name, designate a name; to confess; (mid.) to call oneself; (pass.) to be named; be known
I know you hate sin and love Jesus but your view is wrong and leads people into bondage, if they sin at all you say they aren’t saved and that gives many reason to give up and turn away from Christ because of the impossible standard you hold.
You bring up 1 Cor. 5, but the man who is referred to is clearly NOT saved (he was to be given to Satan with the hope that he repented …) and Paul told the rest to separate themselves with him so that he might get saved.
You must keep in mind that Paul is in his letters sometimes describing sin (which leads to death if not repented of), and sometimes simply gives instructions to people about things which are not necessarily sins but still wrong. Speaking in tongues is one of those things. The Corinthians didn’t realize they sometimes used them incorrectly, and making honest mistakes is not a sin. Also, Paul wrote to the Corinthians, but this does not mean that 100% of the Corinthian church acted in the same way in all matters.
It’s not an impossible standard to be faithful to God. It’s Satan who tries to trick Christians into believing that sinning is totally natural and that they won’t die for it. Satan is a liar.
I’m sorry but you are reading into the text what isn’t there. It never says he lost his salvation, it says to hand him over to Satan for destruction of his flesh so they he may turn from it. The only other option is to stay in sin and not car what the apostle says and apostate. No where does it say he lost his salvation and gained it back once he repented. Even Jesus says if a brother sins against you 7 times and comes back repentant you forgive them. You would claim that person isn’t repentant. I do believe sin leads to death, the issue with your teaching is you believe that as soon as a Christian commits any sin they are dead until they repent, did you notice in 1 Corinthians that punishment was only for that man? But the Christians there were taking each other to court and sueing each other, Paul even said there were sexual immoralities which means there was more than just that going on. He even called out them not honoring the Lords supper and getting drunk at it. There were a myriad of sins they were committing but 1 Corinthians 6:11 clear shows they were Christians. I do believe a Christian can lose salvation from walking in sin and hardening there heart ignoring Gods discipline and walking away similar to Demas. But to act like a single sin regardless of what it is cost salvation is ultra legalsim, I don’t even think the Jews held to such a standard. This is the last reply I leave you. I’m sorry but you do teach sinless perfection and you are wrong. You misinterpret much of scripture by ignoring the Greek tenses and ignoring what many Greek bible scholars says. I pray your eyes are opened and you stop trying to put a yoke on people that is unbearable just like Peter speaks of in acts 15.
According to Paul, not even the pagans acted the way the man in 1 Cor. 5 did and Paul’s message was also that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. For this reason, the man must definitely be removed from the rest, with the hope that he would repent and be able to return.
You said: << Even Jesus says if a brother sins against you 7 times and comes back repentant you forgive them
It says "IF he repent, forgive him" (Luke 17:3)
Notice the IF. In the same manner, we won't be forgiven unless we repent (cease from sinning).
<< I do believe sin leads to death, the issue with your teaching is you believe that as soon as a Christian commits any sin they are dead until they repent
So which one is it? Does sin lead to death or not? If you believe a person does not need to repent for his sins, this means that he is saved in his sins and doesn't risk death. This would also mean that Satan was right after all.
<<, did you notice in 1 Corinthians that punishment was only for that man?
Yes, for only this man sinned. Or rather, the issue in this particular chapter was this man's behavior.
<<But the Christians there were taking each other to court and sueing each other,
If they did this without understanding that it was wrong, it was no sin. Making honest mistakes is not necessarily a sin.
<<Paul even said there were sexual immoralities —
Depends on which verse you're talking about, but naturally such things would be sinful and something that must be repented of and ceased.
<< . But to act like a single sin regardless of what it is cost salvation is ultra legalsim—
Like a s single murder? Can a Christian really afford to commit adultery and theft, if not done too extensively? It' not ultra legalism to be faithful to Jesus and to teach that you can.
<<I pray your eyes are opened and you stop trying to put a yoke on people that is unbearable just like Peter speaks of in acts 15.
What dangerous consequences could my teachings lead to if Christians can afford to sin (if they don't sin way too much)?
Thanks for your posts, and I commend you for being able to discuss this subject with kindness.