The temporary Mosaic Law does not cancel or detract from the eternal MORAL law of God, which applied/applies both before and after the time of the Mosaic Law
Unlike what is commonly claimed, God appears to believe it has not only been possible for us to obey his commandments throughout history, but it is even required for us to always be faithful to him based on the commandments given. This does not mean that he only provides one single chance for us to do so, but serving two masters nevertheless leads to spiritual death. It is not logical to believe that God would give us laws he knew all along we could never obey. It would be equally illogical to view people as guilty transgressors of his laws, if the same people were incapable of obeying him in the first place. Did God really create mankind too weak to obey him? If we instead prefer to blame Adam because we have inherited his sins, would this really be our fault or something we could do anything about? (Read more about the false doctrine of original sin on my Blog.) If we on the other hand have always been capable of obeying our Lord but chosen not to, then we cannot put the blame on anyone else but ourselves. We are guilty transgressors precisely because we could have obeyed God but chosen not to. One sin is enough to be a sinner and in need to be cleansed and forgiven by someone with proper authority.
It is still possible to say that the Law was never intended to justify, and also that it “cannot” save. Not because God gave us commandments too grievous for us to obey, but rather because he knew that man would eventually choose at least one sin (most of us many more and repeatedly) which would make him in need of God’s mercy rather than being saved for having obeyed the Mosaic Law perfectly. Moreover, babies cannot sin since they are not able to transgress the law, and sinning is transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
The purpose of the law of Moses
A great deal of flexibility is found in the use of the term “law” in the New Testament. Sometimes it refers not only to the five first book in the Torah but to the entire Old Testament, including Psalms and Isaiah (compare for instance John 10:34 and 1 Cor. 14:21). It could also mean the ten commandments as compared with Ex. 20:3-17. The Law could also be a principle or influence for a holy life style (Rom. 7:21-25). In the New Testament we find Paul quite often talking about circumcision (a ceremonial law included in the Mosaic Law) which confused many Jews who had come to Christ. For this reason Paul had a great focus on uplifting the law of Christ rather than the former Mosaic Law. See how Paul is differentiating between the two laws while still not claiming that ALL laws are done away with:
1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, BUT KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.
It is clear that Paul was not of the view that we are no longer bound by ANY law just because we are not bound by the law of Moses. We are not living in lawlessness and there are still divine commandments to follow. We are slaves to the one we obey, so if we obey sin we are slaves to sin and not free. Sin continues to cause spiritual death just like it always has.
Paul does not believe that being faithful to the Lord – by avoiding murder, theft, lies, adultery, etc – is called “bondage”. When Paul is talking about “turning back”, and “bondage” in Galatians, he has the Mosaic Law in mind and particularly the ceremonial laws such as circumcision. There is no way Paul would be upset with the Galatians if they “turned back” to “silly old laws” such as “Do not murder, steal, lie, commit adultery”, etc. Those type of activities are still sins in the ever existing moral law of God, and they will never be outdated.
Gal. 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. —21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
One reason for the implementation of the Mosaic law was to keep the Jews as a distinct people:
Lev. 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations
It was also given due to our transgressions, to keep us in place by detailed rules. The law was the Jews’ schoolmaster to bring them to Christ, and when Christ came this schoolmaster was no longer needed. Now our guide is rather the holy Spirit.
Gal. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.—23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not knownsin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The law is not made for the righteous man (who comes to the light and acts righteously out of a pure heart), but to the ungodly disobedient man. Paul explains that it is possible to live with a good conscience, but also that it is possible to shipwreck our faith if we for instance blaspheme God.
1 Tim. 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a PURE HEART, and of a GOOD CONSCIENCE, and of faith unfeigned:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;—9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,— 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God;26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ja. 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
The Old Testament and our ability to obey God
Prior to the time of Moses there were no stone plates with any commandments written on them, but there were nevertheless commandments to obey . other than not eating of the forbidden tree. From the very beginning it has always been considered a sin to murder, steal, lie, commit adultery, etc. God says early on that we should rule over sin. If we do not well, sin lieth at the door…
Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, SIN lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and THOU SHALT RULE OVER HIM.
Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
God required from the Israelites that they must keep his commandments, and as well as emphasizing that they shall live in them and by them. God even gives a curse on those who do not obey the words of his covenant. He makes clear that “THE WORD is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, THAT THOU MAYEST DO IT“, showing that he does not find it impossible for us to obey him at all. He repeatedly says “I COMMAND THEE this day to love the Lord thy God, TO WALK IN HIS WAYS, AND TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes and his judgments.”
Deut. 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.9 And the Lord thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the Lord will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou TURN UNTO THE LORD thy God WITH ALL THINE HEART, and with all thy soul.11 For THIS COMMANDMENT which I COMMAND thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, NEITHER IS IT FAR OFF.—14 But THE WORD is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and IN THY HEART, THAT THOU MAYEST DO IT.15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;16 In that I COMMAND THEE this day to love the Lord thy God, TO WALK IN HIS WAYS, AND TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Lev. 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.
5 You are to observe my laws and rulings; if a person does them, he will have life through them; I am Adonai. (Complete Jewish Bible)
Ez. 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.—13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.—19 I am the Lord your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;—21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
Neh. 9:29 And testifiedst against them, that thou mightest bring them again unto thy law: yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thy judgments, (which if a man do, he shall live in them;) and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.
Deut. 15:4 Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the Lord shall greatly bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it:5 Only IF THOU CAREFULLY HEARKEN UNTO THE VOICE OF THE LORD THY GOD, TO OBSERVE TO DO ALL THESE COMMANDMENTS which I COMMAND thee this day.
Deut. 27:1 And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day.— 10 Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the Lord thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day.—26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Jer. 11:2 Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,4 Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and DO THEM, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:—6 Then the Lord said unto me, Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and do them.
Deut. 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:—13 And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:—45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:—-58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, The Lord Thy God;
Deut. 5:12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the Lord thy God.—32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Those are righteous who DO righteousness – in both the Old and the New testament
We cannot hide behind another person’s righteousness (like Jesus), but we are responsible to live righteous lives. Only the righteous will be saved.
Ez. 18:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Living righteously = LIFE, living in sin = DEATH. Here is the Old Testament verification for that, and Ezekiel explains it best:
Ez. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE.5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,— 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, HE SHALL SURELY LIVE, saith the Lord God.—13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.—17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Ez. 33:5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. —-8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
The New Testament and our capacity to obey 
Jesus repeats the most important commandment in the Old Testament: to love God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength, as well as Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. He does not seem to believe it is impossible to obey these commandments, nor that they are no longer valid. These commandments sum up the major part of the ten commandments.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
Jesus says about the commandments “whosoever shall do and teach them…”, indicating that there are people who indeed practice obedience to the commandments, or else he would not have phrased himself quite like that:
Matt. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
- Who will be great in heaven? – Those who DO the commandments and teach others to do the same.
- Who will be least in heaven? – Those who break one of the least commandments and teach others to do the same.
Note that there is also a risk that some believers will not even make it into the kingdom of God due to their behavior! It is possible that it is particularly breaking of the greater commandments which prevents a person from entering the kingdom of heaven, unless he/she repents of course. Then again one sin – big or small – makes a person a sinner and in need of cleansing and forgiveness. It is best to take interest in walking with God and be led by the Spirit. We should avoid criticizing those who claim we can be successfully faithful to Jesus here and now (Titus 2:11-12) and who live holy lives. After all, Jesus says they are the ones who will be great in heaven (if they “walk the talk” that is). Naturally we have a right to criticize them if they are hypocrites like the pharisees – which means they are not being obedient after all.
We are supposed to be sanctified of the holy Spirit unto obedience, which means we have been given the power to successfully obey. If we are being led by the Spirit we will walk on the road to obedience. If we fail we cannot blame God but ourselves:
1 Pet. 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Peter says that we have purified our souls by being obedient, and also suggests that there will be righteous people who will be “scarcely saved” (perhaps due to scarce good fruit in the person’s life). It is the ungodly sinner who is in deep trouble:
1 Pet. 1: 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1 Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?18 And if the righteous man is scarcely saved, the ungodly and sinner — where shall he appear?19 so that also those suffering according to the will of god, as to a stedfast Creator, let them commit their own souls in good doing.
Compare with these verses about a pure heart:
1 Tim. 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Tim. 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Tim. 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Hebr. 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Matt. 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
John seems to be saying that we can obey the truth and that is why we come to the light – because we have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. Some translations say that “he that obeys not the son shall not see life…”.
John 3:20 For every one that DOETH evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.—36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Luke says that the holy Spirit is given to those who obey him.
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Below in Romans follows Paul’s clarification that we will get eternal life by well-doing and that those who do not obey the truth will be affected by the wrath of God. It is possible to “by nature” do the law because the law can be written in our hearts. We will be judged accordingly and depending on our thoughts and our conscience. Paul explains that a true Jew is actually one who has a circumcised heart rather than circumcised flesh. Paul spends a lot of time in the book of Romans to get the christian Jews to understand their new position in Jesus Christ – in whom the Mosaic Law is fulfilled – and that followers are saved by faith rather than being a Jew under the former law.
Rom. 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) — 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Paul tells us that “henceforth we should not serve sin”, indicating that we have the ability to do so. He also explains what this means when he says that we should not obey the lust of our mortal body (using our body to sin with), and we are reminded that we are servants to the one we obey – sin unto DEATH or obedience unto righteousness and life. The NKJV explains it with an easier language “12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you—“. If we obey sin, we die and if we obey the holy Spirit (towards righteousness) we will live. Satan is still wrong with his claim that sinning will not cause death. We have an awesome power to overcome sin thanks to the holy Spirit!
Rom. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that HENCEFORTH WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN. — 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, THAT YE SHOULD OBEY IT IN THE LUSTS THEREOF.13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.—16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness?17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for THE END OF THOSE THINGS IS DEATH. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end EVERLASTING LIFE 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Read this article about Paul’s expressions in Rom. 7 where he is not talking about his new christian life even though he uses present tense. Below Paul continues to assure us that there is no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit He offers no such assurances for those who do NOT walk after the Spirit, and Christians are not exempted from any risks. To be carnally minded is death, according to Paul, so if he would have lived in sin – as some Christians claim he did as per Rom. 7) then Paul would be spiritually dead when he wrote all those letters to us in the New Testament! He would also have been the biggest hypocrite in the New Testament. “If you live after the flesh, you shall die”, is his serious message, but the wonderful promise is that if we are led by the Spirit we are the sons of God and we have tickets to an eternal life in God’s kingdom!
Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but AFTER THE SPIRIT.—4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of RIGHTEOUSNESS.—12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.13 For IF YE LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YE SHALL DIE: but IF YE THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YE SHALL LIVE. 14 For as many as are LED BY THE SPIRIT of God, they are the sons of God.
It is possible to obey Christ out of a pure heart. 
Eph. 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Hebr. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY HIM
Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
As I stated above, Paul is not criticizing the Galatians because they reverted back to laws such as “Do not murder, steal, lie or commit adultery”. There would not be any reason at all for Paul to be mightily upset with the Galatians if they were convinced they needed to avoid such sins for salvation’s sake in order to show their true love for God. It was rather the topic of circumcision that Paul was talking about. The Galatians were in liberty from the ceremonial laws, but none of us are in liberty to sin against God. Again, we are slaves to the one we obey, so if we obey sin we are slaves to sin and not free. The “yoke of bondage” that Paul is talking about is not concerning the eternal moral law but the 613 Mosaic laws. If the Galatians wanted to stick with circumcision as requirement for salvation, then picking and choosing among the Mosaic laws would not be satisfactory. If they wanted to stick with circumcision requirement, they had to obey the rest of the laws as well, and Christ would have died for them in vain.
Paul compares their stance with the new testament where we are rather saved by faith (apart from the Mosaic law). Being saved by faith does not mean that we are now able to sin without consequences, because we are never free if we are slaves to sin. “Faith which works by love”, means that we are expected to love God out of a pure heart when we are led by the holy Spirit, rather than multiple written instructions. The Spirit leads us away from a life of sin. Paul does ask the Galatians who hinders them to obey the truth, meaning they are still required to obey, and “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump” (one sin is enough). Paul says “all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself”. We are expected to continue loving God with all of our of our heart and our neighbor as ourselves. Paul promises us “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh”, and “if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law”. We are not on the right track unless we are being led by the Spirit. Paul continues by giving examples of the works of the flesh, and assures the christian Galatians that they will not inherit the kingdom of God if they do such things.
Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.—13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
“If you love me, keep my commandments”. That is a rather clear command. Jesus died for all of us due to his love for the whole world (and wanting no one to perish), but in a way God’s love is also conditional. “IF A MAN LOVE ME, HE WILL KEEP MY WORDS: and my Father will love him”. If we truly love our spouse we stay faithful to him/her, and it is the same thing with our love for God.
John 14:15 IF YE LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. —21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.—23 Jesus answered and said unto him, IF A MAN LOVE ME, HE WILL KEEP MY WORDS: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.24 He that loveth me not KEEPETH NOT my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
God’s commandments are not grievous. The solution to the sin problem is to repent from our sins and start being led by the Spirit in holiness. The solution is not to hide behind Jesus and pretend that God doesn’t see our sins. He does. How do we know that we love God? If we keep his commandments. All unrighteousness is a sin, and sin continues to separate us from God. We can overcome sin thanks to our Helper!
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.3 For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: AND HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT GRIEVOUS. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.—17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Some Christians use this verse as support for the idea that we are free to sin without serious consequences:
Rom. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
However, Paul is still focusing on circumcision and the many ceremonial laws in the Mosaic Law, which is clear if we read the verses before and after. We must never forget Paul’s reason for this emphasis when he tried to reason with some of the christian Jews:
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YE BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES; YE CANNOT BE SAVED. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
It was never about a disputation about Jews claiming it is still necessary to be faithful to God and avoid murder, theft, lies and adultery, but about the Mosaic Law. It is still not a sin for a Jew to circumcise his flesh, but it is wrong to teach that this is required for salvation – since it is an unnecessary yoke for Jewish believers.
Bjorkbloggen 
Yeah, I’m done. I’m not wasting anymore time with you. I have a family to take care of and there are people who actually will hear. You have your mind made up beforehand and it wouldn’t matter if I gave you every single proof and answered every single objection, you still wouldn’t be able to accept it. You at least currently do not currently have ears to hear these things. It would probably be too much for you to even bear these truths at this point in time. Maybe it is by God’s grace that you cannot understand and even truly consider these things objectively because it would be too much to wear you out. There were times when I went through that and couldn’t be made to receive things and needed the grace and leading to get there and later actually correct myself. I wish God’s grace upon you to hear more of his truth if it pleases him and in his timing. Without the grace of God we can’t even do anything. It is only by his will that we can come to know him and his truth for he is the giver of light in the darkness.
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So last comment in this thread. Yes, this advice is something to think about:
<<You have your mind made up beforehand and it wouldn’t matter if I gave you every single proof and answered every single objection, you still wouldn’t be able to accept it.
Many blessings to you!
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“I find it strange that the holy Spirit would influence holy men of God to write the Bible in this way. If Peter sees all those animals and God tells him in the vision to KILL AND EAT, and you tell me that he really did not mean KILL AND EAT but something entirely different, then we cannot trust anything in the Bible. This is not the right way to read the Bible, but it’s rather picking and choosing. If God meant something entirely different, it’s really confusing to command Peter to do something he really didn’t mean at all. As well as confusing all Bible readers.”
>>> There are also prophetic visions where God tells people to eat scrolls. In Revelation God talks about about waters and then explains that they are referring to peoples. When a visions meaning is explained and nothing else is added to the explanatio, why would you go outside of that. Why did the the sheet of animals do it THREE times. Because THREE gentile guys which the animals represented came to Peter. Why would Peter who knew more than you be confused about the vision’s meaning until he knew and then exaplained it different than what you say, but yet you know it better than him?
“Again, “law” can be understood slightly different depending on context. Paul lists examples of SIN, and sinning makes us unclean. What we eat doesn’t make us unclean.”
>>> Then this should say:
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, [WHICH ARE ALL UNCLEANNESS, and these are]: adultery, fornication, [removed], lustfulness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, fightings, jealousies, angers, intrigues, dissensions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you beforehand, even as I also said before, that the ones practicing such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control. Against such things there is not a law.
But it says what it says.
“You have shown me nothing so far which would be the “opposite” but I have proven to you what Paul’s sentiments were. He opposed circumcision heavily in many of his letters, time and again. It’s not possible to ignore.
And what exactly did Peter say? He supported Paul wholeheartedly and he said “which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures”. So Peter warns people from twisting the words of Paul. Is this not what you are doing?”
>>> Because there are just so many. I do not think I am twisting Paul. I don’t see any other way to reconcile it. I haven’t quoted every text but there are tons of these texts of Paul condemning uncleanness. Paul also advocates for male supremacy and uses the Law as his evidence. And there is just so much in the NT but another one is Paul tells the Corinthians to keep the Passover but not while in sin. Study Church history. The Church of Asia who retained the traditions of John the apostle and other Apostolics were very adamant that he had taught them to keep the Passover and on the right time not adding to and taking away when the rest of the world chrurches decided to fall away and do their own style of Passover, something like Easter. This confirms my reading of Paul to the Corinthians. Revelation 7 has the saints in the Kingdom keeping the Festival of Tabernacles with Jesus which confirms the literalism of the prophecy of Zechariah 14 about Jesus’ return and how the Festival of the LORD as going to be continued to be required even after Jesus’ return with curses as punishment for those who refuse.
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Hello again
I think it’s time to wrap it up. Again, what you have been saying here has been mostly addressed in my article, and you bring up other arguments which I have never argued against.
<>> There are also prophetic visions where God tells people to eat scrolls.
Good point, and each time the scrolls have been eaten!
<< In Revelation God talks about about waters—-
Just because there is symbolic language in the Bible, it doesn't matter that WE get to pick and choose and do away with important messages by calling them poetry/symbols, etc. Please cease with such cherry picking. Again, if God clearly shows Peter animals in a vision, and tells Peter to KILL AND EAT, and Peter protests about the prospect of eating something that is unclean, and God proceeds to correct Peter and advise him to not call something unclean which God calls clean, then the message couldn't be more clear! Either God is a God of utter confusion and the Bible doesn't mean what it says, OR we can trust the Biblical information in its proper context. Visions, parables, etc should be for our benefit, and they should be easy to understand. You’re trying to make this vision to mean the exact opposite of what the text says.
<<Why did the the sheet of animals do it THREE times.
Probably because God knew there would be people arguing against him just like Peter initially did, and just like you continue to do. We are NOT supposed to call something unclean which God calls clean. God called all those animals clean and he told Peter to kill and eat. Chrystal clear. Peter certainly understood what God meant and started to protest.
<<Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, [WHICH ARE ALL UNCLEANNESS, and these are]: adultery, fornication, [removed], lustfulness,
What's your point? Sinning makes a person unclean. Period. Paul is annoyed with the Galatians (and Romans, Corinthians, Colossians, etc) due to the teaching that circumcision is necessary for salvation. Paul makes its clear it is NOT.
<< I don’t see any other way to reconcile it
Read my article again. I reconcile it by not changing the text, such as the way you do when it comes to Acts 10, Galatians, etc. Just leave the text alone, and suddenly the Bible means what it says.
<< I haven’t quoted every text but there are tons of these texts of Paul condemning uncleanness.
It's easier to read what Paul says about SIN, and he even lists various sins in his letters. If we avoid such sins, we are clean. Easy.
<<Paul also advocates for male supremacy and uses the Law as his evidence.
No, he uses Adam and Eve as an example. They both lived before the law of Moses.
<<And there is just so much in the NT but another one is Paul tells the Corinthians to keep the Passover but not while in sin.
It's certainly no sin to celebrate Passover, but it's wrong to teach various traditions as being essential for salvation.
<<do their own style of Passover, something like Easter.
In most countries we continue to celebrate Passover. You guys call it Easter, but in non-English countries we call it PASSOVER (in our languages). The Easter name is unfortunate, but at least it signifies the same sort of Passover as it celebrated in the rest of the world. And there is no requirement to celebrate Passover with pagan things.
Friend, I think we must end here. I say this so that you won't spend time writing in vain. I encourage you to reread my article.
Thanks for your input!
Blessings
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“Thus showing God’s character has not changed from that of which is in the LAw.”
>>> I’m not arguing that nothing has changed hasn’t ever changed. I’m arguing WHAT has changed. Has is actually changed in the way you say? Did God become liberal like you say, or was the change conservative.
“God existed also during the time of Adam, long before the Mosaic law existed. God is still the same but laws can be changed. How long did the Mosaic law last? I’ve already stated this in my article based on Galatians. UNTIL CHRIST.”
>>> I agree the MOSAIC LAW TO THE LETTER was until Christ. However you and I will both agree that the certain parts of the Mosaic Law still are required, though we believe differently about which parts. Therefore this argument cannot be used against either of us, only against someone who believes the Mosaic Law Covenant remains utterly unchanged and necessary to be kept to the Letter.
“Also note Paul’s warning to those who teach that ceremonial laws still apply:
Gal. 5: 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.”
>>> I don’t interpret this text how you do. Though I’m certainly open to circumcision no longer being required for the Gentile portion of God’s people there are things that make me believe that this is not what Paul meant. One is the OT prophecies about the nature of the Kingdom of God. There are NT reasons as well that present inconsistencies.
“And I want to point out this is possibly why Paul circumcised Timothy because of the Jews who would give him a hard time (Acts 16:3). It is possible that since Timothy was a half Yehudi (Jew), he from the time he was a babe and onward knew the Holy Scriptures (2Timothy 3:15), he didn’t need to go through the same Torah learning process that most of those coming from out of the gentiles still needed to go through. Therefore he would have most likely known what he was getting himself into by being circumcised, what it meant and so on. But if this were not the case then I would think Paul would have to be a complete hypocrite for circumcising him. For he would by his own mouth be causing the stumbling-block of the cross to cease (Galatians 5:11), he would merely be trying to make a good show in the flesh so that he and Timothy might not suffer persecution for the cross of the Anointed One (Galatians 6:12), and that hypocrites could boast in Timothy’s flesh (Galatians 6:13). But if he was not a hypocrite according to this and what I have proposed above is indeed the truth, then the vain unprofitable lies that we have inherited for so long by our forefathers (Jeremiah 16:19) certainly do, however, make Paul out to be a huge hypocrite. Either way, however, it is time for us to unlearn these lies. By the way, ‘hypocrite’ means ‘actor.’ So if Paul really was just acting when he was keeping the Torah to put a show on for the Jews, and please them, and infiltrate them to “save” them, as is the interpretation of 1Corinthians 9:20-22 of professing Christians, he would indeed be an actor/hypocrite. You can’t get around it. But Paul said he followed the Messiah (1Corinthians 11:1). And where did the Messiah ever do such things? For instance, he knew that the Pharisees had all these traditions of men like washing before you eat, and that it offended them if one didn’t follow those traditions. And yet, Messiah wasn’t a people pleaser, and didn’t submit to these dogmas of men, but rebuked the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and stupid traditions of men that make the Law of God of none effect! (Matthew 15; Mark 7; and remember: these traditions were the Law to them) He didn’t care about not offending them! He was a stumbling block to them! He was, as it is written, “a stone of stumbling, a rock of offence” to them (Isaiah 8:14; 1Peter 2:8; Romans 9:32-33; 1Corinthains 1:23). So why didn’t the Messiah become as subject to the law of the Pharisees around them so that he might avoid causing them to stumble and gain them to his Way of Salvation? BECAUSE HE WASN’T A HYPOCRITE/ACTOR! He wasn’t about to be causing the stumbling-block of the cross to cease (Galatians 5:11), merely trying to make a good show in the flesh so that he might not suffer persecution (Galatians 6:12), and that hypocrites could boast in the flesh (Galatians 6:13). That’s the kind of the thing the Pharisees did! And Paul said he followed Messiah, so if he really followed him he would not have done such a thing. And we know that Paul was a real stumbling block to the religious Jews in his time, and that they had a real problem with him, and tried to kill him, just like they did the Messiah. Could it possibly be that Paul was actually following the Messiah’s example and keeping the Torah minus the oral torah of the Pharisees, the traditions of humans that conflict with the commandments of God, and that that is the reason why so many Jews hated Paul? Wouldn’t that make much more sense than saying that Paul was a huge hypocrite/actor who said he followed the Messiah but really didn’t like the professing Christians are saying? YOU DECIDE!
[. . .]
And because it will still be done in the Kingdom when it is established on earth by the Messiah, and will be mandatory to be circumcised to enter into the Sanctuary. Notice being circumcised only in either the flesh or heart is not enough to be in the presence of God in the Kingdom, he requires both the heart circumcision and the flesh circumcision. This is what the Torah (5 books of Moses) itself says as well.
“[9] So says the Lord [YHWH]: No son of [A STRANGER], uncircumcised of heart AND UNCIRCUMCISED OF FLESH, shall enter into My sanctuary, or any son of [A STRANGER] among the sons of Israel.”—Ezekiel 44 LITV (edited)
Isaiah also confirms this. He says that when God redeems all of Israel from their captivity among the gentiles/nations and brings them back into the land (see the context) the circumcised and the unclean will not be allowed to come into the Holy City of Jerusalem/Zion.
“[52:1] Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.”—KJV
So what, circumcision is done away for us now, but then when God brings us into his Kingdom, the one “on earth as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10; Luke 11:2) he will require it again? So now he has redeemed us from the supposed “yoke of slavery,” but later on he will put us back under it again for 1000 years? So the wonderful Millennial Sabbath Rest (Hebrews 4) is really not a Sabbath rest after all but 1000 years of bondage. Strangely confusing… Of course arguments like this will not matter to you if you are Preterist or and Amillennialist. These arguments are only for those who hold to the Orthodox Scriptural Apostolic doctrine of Chiliasm, the view of the earliest Orthodox Assembly of God. A refutation of both Preterism and Amillennialism will have to be reserved for separate papers. In short, for now, both Scripture and early Assembly history refutes these teachings.” [nd of quote]
And Paul says something similar here too:
1Co 7:18 Was anyone called having been circumcised? Do not be uncircumcised. Was anyone called in uncircumcision? Do not be circumcised.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of God’s commands.
But it also mentions marriage here and what is the conclusion for remaining as is?
1Co 7:26 Therefore I think this to be good, because of the present necessity: that it is good for a man to be so.
the present distress of hardcore tribulation and persecution. It would be ahrd to flee from Roman armies if you are recovering from circumcision just like would be hard to with an entire famil and that family could be used against you to make you recant your faith. The Israelites also did not circumcise for a long time in the wilderness yet God was merciful to them and did not just condemn them but gave them time to correct themselves. But to unmerciful require circumcision while under attack would be to say that ceremonial laws which are not inherently moral though required by God but needed by him as though he was in need, actually in themselves justify and would be works righteousness. Christ also gave new ceremonial laws so it isn’t against cermonial laws but how could we think we are condemned by God if on Sunday we have to flee from Romans all day we cannot keep the commanded Lord’s supper tthat day?
“That is why I emphasized obedience in my article. And that there are still commands to obey. Did you miss that?”
>>> Yes, but obey what? Society is falling because of the Arminian law of “love.” This is why the white man has been duped to hate his own people and bow down to the liberals and suck up to the races who hate him because he has been convinced the racism of the Bible is evil. Europe is collapsing because it refuses to submit to the Torah, the Love of Gosd which says racial integration is bad and so the borders are open and Daniel is fulfilled which says “they shall mingled with the seed of men but will not adhere to one another.”
“Not endorses it, but doesn’t prohibit it either in the OT or NT. Why? Because outlawing it would mean the death for multiple people. Instead we can see protective laws for servants in the OT, to give them several protective rights. I’ve written about this topic as well.”
>>> This comment ” Because outlawing it would mean the death for multiple people.” implies that bondservanthood is evil inherently but God can’t do away with it right now because of what people would do so he regulates it. Here’s the problem though. In the OT it says when God coems to judge the earth and redeemd his people from the nations into his kingdom and they reign with his over the nations that the evil nations will be their bondservants as punishment.
Yes it does endorse it when it tells slaves to obey their masters because it is good in God’s sight. But slaves have protective rights in the Bible so that you can’t abuse people. Just like it does allow exploiting animals for gain but not in an abusive way.
“Paul had female coworkers.”
>>> Yep, but they weren’t preaches and teachers, which he blatantly forbids, appealing to the Law of Moses as his proof. There is a heirarchy in this creation. The head of Christ is God, man is made in the image and glory of God, and women image and glory of man. Woman are to be subject to man and it very clearly says this, very clearly. Women are below in authority and have a different place in society, the home and the Church.
“You should try to be more loving and cease with the many unrighteous judgments about large groups of people. The law of LOVE, which you talk about.”
>>> Paul didn’t sound very loving to most in Galatians when he corrected their error but I’m sure he was genuinely loving them. Love isn’t always kisses, hugs, sunshine, lollypops and rainbows. It can be in the form of seriousness in correction too.
I don’t think I was out of line by saying people believe they are more righteous than God and want to have a moral standard above his Word in their own mind. Though I could more accurately say that Christians do not believe they are acting more righteous than God because they believe this is what God teaches them to be like.
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Hello
>>> Did God become liberal like you say, or was the change conservative.
Where am I saying that God has become liberal? I’m saying that there were commandments also prior to the time of Moses, and those commandments still apply. It’s always against the law to murder, steal, lie and commit adultery.
<<However you and I will both agree that the certain parts of the Mosaic Law still are required
Yes, the moral law.
<<Though I’m certainly open to circumcision no longer being required for the Gentile portion of God’s people
Paul was speaking to Jews who had become christians. Circumcision is not required for them either.
<< there are things that make me believe that this is not what Paul meant. One is the OT prophecies about the nature of the Kingdom of God.
How would this change the fact that Paul speaks heavily against the idea that the ceremonial laws no longer apply?
<< There are NT reasons as well that present inconsistencies.
So far you haven't shown any.
”And I want to point out this is possibly why Paul circumcised Timothy —
Often a point that is brought up, but the point is that it's not a sin for Jews (such as Timothy who had a Jewish mother) to circumcise themselves but it's totally wrong to claim that it's required for salvation. Which I also stated in my article. It's not hypocritical to continue with some of the Jewish traditions.
<<You can’t get around it.
I just did get around it. And you cannot get around that Paul spoke heavily against circumcision as a requirement throughout his letters. You cannot rip those pages out.
<< And yet, Messiah wasn’t a people pleaser, and didn’t submit to these dogmas of men, but rebuked the Pharisees for their hypocrisy
Jesus complained that the pharisees were hypocrites and made the law even harder than what intended. The pharisees were sinners.
<<And Paul said he followed Messiah
Indeed, and he did so perfectly with a good conscience. Far from being a hypocrite.
<< Could it possibly be that Paul was actually following the Messiah’s example and keeping the Torah–
Again, it's not a sin to follow some Jewish traditions, but it's a sin to teach them as required for salvation.
<< Notice being circumcised only in either the flesh or heart is not enough to be in the presence of God in the Kingdom, he requires both the heart circumcision and the flesh circumcision.
So you are one of those who Paul warned about in his letters. A person who teaches that ceremonial laws are still required for salvation. Paul speaks heavily against it, and I showed it in my article.
<<Isaiah also confirms this.
Isaiah is in the OT.
<>> Yes, but obey what?
I showed it in my article. I quotes Jesus, Paul, etc.
<>> This comment ” Because outlawing it would mean the death for multiple people.” implies that bondservanthood is evil inherently but God can’t do away with it right now because of what people would do so he regulates it.
I didn’t say it was evil or good. I’m saying outlawing the practice would mean the death of many people.
< Yep, but they weren’t preaches and teachers, which he blatantly forbids
No he doesn’t forbid it at all. He does speak about authority in a CHURCH environment, but even there women can prophesy which means providing messages from God. Please don’t twist the scriptures.
<< The head of Christ is God, man is made in the image and glory of God, and women image and glory of man.—
Exactly. What is your point? Did I argue against it?
<< Paul didn’t sound very loving to most in Galatians when he corrected their error—
Correcting errors is loving. False accusations is not loving.
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et me be clear. I do not believe we are under the Old Covenant Mosaic Law to the Letter. We are under a New Covenant with a New Law. However, I do not agree with most Christians’ shallow mystical abstract understanding of the New Law. I do not believe that God almost totally did away with and changed everythign so that the New Law is beyond recognition from the Old one as if God had changedhis character. If you put the last Hebrew letter of Deuteronomy together with the first Hebrew letter of Genesis, you get the Hebrew word for heart. Thus showing God’s character has not changed from that of which is in the LAw. his righteous standard is still essentially the same. God’s heart didn’t evolve. Morality hasn’t evolved like the way it seems you guys say. And now people today are even going further and being ore lawless and saying even more things are permissible which christians of past generations did not. where does it stop? This is what happens when you have an abstract mystical law vs a concrete one like the Torah. It is all just about “love.” Many Christians in these days condemn slavery as immoral, but even the NT blatantly endorses it. The Bible clearly teaches humans can be owned as property. And look at Christian feminism when Paul, the one who supposedly releases people from the Law is the most against it in the NT. Christians with their mystical gnositc law believe they are more righteous than the God they claim to follow.
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Hello
<< Thus showing God’s character has not changed from that of which is in the LAw.
God existed also during the time of Adam, long before the Mosaic law existed. God is still the same but laws can be changed. How long did the Mosaic law last? I've already stated this in my article based on Galatians. UNTIL CHRIST. Also note Paul's warning to those who teach that ceremonial laws still apply:
Gal. 5: 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
<< And now people today are even going further and being ore lawless and saying even more things are permissible which christians of past generations did not. where does it stop?
That is why I emphasized obedience in my article. And that there are still commands to obey. Did you miss that?
<<Many Christians in these days condemn slavery as immoral, but even the NT blatantly endorses it.
Not endorses it, but doesn't prohibit it either in the OT or NT. Why? Because outlawing it would mean the death for multiple people. Instead we can see protective laws for servants in the OT, to give them several protective rights. I've written about this topic as well.
<< And look at Christian feminism when Paul, the one who supposedly releases people from the Law is the most against it in the NT.
Paul had female coworkers.
<<Christians with their mystical gnositc law believe they are more righteous than the God they claim to follow.
You should try to be more loving and cease with the many unrighteous judgments about large groups of people. The law of LOVE, which you talk about.
GBU
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“Because they are ceremonial laws included in the Mosaic law which is no longer an obligation to obey. There was a time both before and after the Mosaic law, and there were commandments to obey even if they were not written on stone tablets. During the Mosaic time certain food was prohibited to eat, but Peter received a revelation from God about a new era. What is clean/unclean can indeed change if God decides is should:
Acts 10:2 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.””
>>> Nowhere does the text say it is literally speaking about eating animals. Peter after clearly says that the vision was showing him that he was not to call any MAN that God had excepted, Jew or Gentile, common/profane.It is clearthe vision was symbolic of people. The four corners of the sheet represented the four corners of the earth, and the various unclean animals represented the Gentiles, and the matter happening three times represented the three men that were to come and see Peter.
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Hello
It’s better that you wrap up your comments in one post, or else it looks like spamming.
Your interpretation of Peter’s revelation is rather odd, and it would make God a God of confusion. Of course the reader will understand it to mean EATING of ANIMALS, since unclean animals were shown to Peter and God clearly says ” “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”.
Again, KILL AND EAT. It couldn’t be more clear.
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“I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Of course the Mosaic law was an obligation to obey during the time of the Mosaic law, and if people wanted to join the Israelites and become one of them, they must also adhere to their current laws. My argument is that the Mosaic law is fulfilled in Jesus and we are no longer under this law. The Canaanites were apparently a thoroughly evil people, and God asked the Israelites to totally wipe them out.”
>>> I’m saying God required this law of Gentiles for sure, a law which you guys say is unique only to Israel under the Old Covenant. I’m showing you that your moral law is not what God says in the Bible.
Canaan wasn’t trying to join Israel here.
Yes, and one of the reasons God had them wiped out was because they didn’t obeying the menstrual laws, even though they weren’t under the Old Covenant at the time, nor seeking to join Israel. So supposedly according to your understanding, God judged a people for breaking a law they were supposedly never under, nor seeking to be, nor did God seek them to be.
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Correct, Canaan wasn’t trying to join Israel, but if anyone were to join Israel, they were required to adhere to the laws of Israel. If the menstruation law was the only law that the Canaanites didn’t obey it wouldn’t have been so bad, but it wasn’t. They disobeyed God severely and were thoroughly evil through and through. I have never claimed that God would judge people as though they were under the Mosaic law even though they might not have heard of it. But I say that IF they wanted to unite with the Iraelites then they would have to obey their laws as well. How does God judge people? Read in Romans. 2 and you will see that he is rather judging our hearts.
You wrote: ” I’m showing you that your moral law is not what God says in the Bible.”
You have shown no such thing. I have shown the opposite. I mentioned for example Galatians. By article is replete with arguments against a continuation of the Mosaic law still being applied.
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These texts show that your over-simplified explanation of Paul’s difficult to understand seeminglingy negative comments about the Law is not sufficien. All of these texts speak the same way about the Law and yet they are “moral” laws:
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
2Co 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
The moral vs civil and ceremonial law distinction you people make is not entirely accurate. For example, most of your kind believe that we know longer must keep the laws concerning a woman’s menstruation and that these were only ceremonial laws for the Jews. However, this is contradicted by Leviticus 18:
Lev 18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
Lev 18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
Lev 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
Lev 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
One of the reasons God judged the Canaanites was because they did not keep the Laws of Menstruation but instead went against them. But the Canaanites were not Israelites.
all over Paul’s letters he preaches against living a lifestyle of uncleanness. So how could he then contradict himself in his same epistles and say nothing is now unclean and those things don’t matter anymore?
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Hello there
It seems like I have already addressed your first argument in my article.
<< All of these texts speak the same way about the Law and yet they are ”moral” laws:
I have already stated this:
“A great deal of flexibility is found in the use of the term “law” in the New Testament. Sometimes it refers not only to the five first book in the Torah but to the entire Old Testament, including Psalms and Isaiah (compare for instance John 10:34 and 1 Cor. 14:21). It could also mean the ten commandments as compared with Ex. 20:3-17. The Law could also be a principle or influence for a holy life style (Rom. 7:21-25). In the New Testament we find Paul quite often talking about circumcision (a ceremonial law included in the Mosaic Law) which confused many Jews who had come to Christ. For this reason Paul had a great focus on uplifting the law of Christ rather than the former Mosaic Law. See how Paul is differentiating between the two laws while still not claiming that ALL laws are done away with:
1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, BUT KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.”
I also said about Romans 7:
“Read this article about Paul’s expressions in Rom. 7 where he is not talking about his new christian life even though he uses present tense. Below Paul continues to assure us that there is no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit He offers no such assurances for those who do NOT walk after the Spirit, and Christians are not exempted from any risks. To be carnally minded is death, according to Paul, so if he would have lived in sin – as some Christians claim he did as per Rom. 7) then Paul would be spiritually dead when he wrote all those letters to us in the New Testament! He would also have been the biggest hypocrite in the New Testament. ”If you live after the flesh, you shall die”, is his serious message, but the wonderful promise is that if we are led by the Spirit we are the sons of God and we have tickets to an eternal life in God’s kingdom!”
<< The moral vs civil and ceremonial law distinction you people make is not entirely accurate. For example, most of your kind believe that we know longer must keep the laws concerning a woman’s menstruation and that these were only ceremonial laws for the Jews. However, this is contradicted by Leviticus 18—One of the reasons God judged the Canaanites was because they did not keep the Laws of Menstruation but instead went against them. But the Canaanites were not Israelites.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Of course the Mosaic law was an obligation to obey during the time of the Mosaic law, and if people wanted to join the Israelites and become one of them, they must also adhere to their current laws. My argument is that the Mosaic law is fulfilled in Jesus and we are no longer under this law. The Canaanites were apparently a thoroughly evil people, and God asked the Israelites to totally wipe them out.
<<all over Paul’s letters he preaches against living a lifestyle of uncleanness. So how could he then contradict himself in his same epistles and say nothing is now unclean and those things don’t matter anymore?
Because they are ceremonial laws included in the Mosaic law which is no longer an obligation to obey. There was a time both before and after the Mosaic law, and there were commandments to obey even if they were not written on stone tablets. During the Mosaic time certain food was prohibited to eat, but Peter received a revelation from God about a new era. What is clean/unclean can indeed change if God decides is should:
Acts 10:2 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”
GBU
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“It seems like I have already addressed your first argument in my article.”
>>> No. My argument was that you think Paul was simply saying that believers don’t have to keep all of these Torah laws anymore to be right with God. I was saying that he uses this same language in reference to “moral” laws and so therefore this explanation isinsufficient. This is why faith alone people will say that obeying any law is not necessary to be saved. I don’t agree with that but they make a good point in calling this out.
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Hello
“Faith alone” is not correct because the Bible says the opposite (Ja. 2:24).
I have already showed in my article why Paul indeed rejects the idea that the Mosaic law still applies. I have also given examples of multiple ways to understand “law” in the New Testament, so the context must decide what the point is. I showed you Paul’s statements in Galatians where he is mighty upset with them because of their stance on circumcision. If the Galatians wanted to revert back to the Mosaic law, then they must not only obey the law of circumcision but all the 613 laws, and in that case Jesus would have died for them in vain. I ended my article with the reason for Paul’s strong words:
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YE BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES; YE CANNOT BE SAVED. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
GBU
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“Correct, Canaan wasn’t trying to join Israel, but if anyone were to join Israel, they were required to adhere to the laws of Israel. If the menstruation law was the only law that the Canaanites didn’t obey it wouldn’t have been so bad, but it wasn’t. They disobeyed God severely and were thoroughly evil through and through. I have never claimed that God would judge people as though they were under the Mosaic law even though they might not have heard of it. But I say that IF they wanted to unite with the Iraelites then they would have to obey their laws as well. How does God judge people? Read in Romans. 2 and you will see that he is rather judging our hearts.”
>>> So you admitted Canaan wasn’t trying to join Israel.
It wasn’t the only law byut it was one of them, ONE OF THE >>>REASONS<<>> Galatians could be misinterpreted to also prove that you don’t have to do anything to be saved. And indeed people do so, as you know. Paul also says in the Letter that uncleanness is a work of the flesh. What happend to nothing is unclean?
Paul said (with a more literal rendering of the Greek):
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of Law, if not through faith of Jesus Christ (we also believed into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith of Christ and not by works of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law). [Psa. 123:2; 143:2] (KJ3)
Even David who was under the Law of Moses said this. Paul says here man is not justified by the Law if it is not through the faith of Christ. Man’s obedience to God does not count unless it is done in faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. All have sinned and all need a savior and no one can get eternal life by just doing good and obeying laws. We need Christ’s atonement.
I understand all of your arguments against the LAw. I won’t deal with every single one because I can do so on my own platform for all to see not just you and something that is throrough. I’m showing you some serious flaws in your reasoning so that if you are really an objective person in search of truth, that you will be able to be steered in a more accurate direction and correct some of your mistakes.
“Hello
It’s better that you wrap up your comments in one post, or else it looks like spamming.
Your interpretation of Peter’s revelation is rather odd, and it would make God a God of confusion. Of course the reader will understand it to mean EATING of ANIMALS, since unclean animals were shown to Peter and God clearly says ” “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”.
Again, KILL AND EAT. It couldn’t be more clear.”
>>>> I frequently get power cuts here so it could delete if I write long posts.
No, you are interjecting your biases into the text of Acts 10. It says nothing of food. Peter’s conclusion wasn’t. God cleansed all animals for food now. It was God cleansed all Gentiles who believe:
Act 10:28 And he said to them, You know how unlawful it is for a man, a Jew, to unite with or to come near to one of another nation. Yet God showed to me not to call a man, not one, common or unclean.
Peter did nto take the vision literally because it wasn’t literal. He even was confused at first what it meant until after a bit. Then he got it and said it was about people.
“Kill and eat” is part of the FIGURATIVE vision. The same figurative language is used of Babylon is Rev. 17-18. And also the fact that Rev. still uses unlcean animals as a figure of speech for evil people and spirits long after all animals are supposedly supposed to now be cleansed, shows that they have never been cleansed. Scientific studies also show that the toxicity level of unclean animals is much higher than the clean.
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Hello again
<>> So you admitted Canaan wasn’t trying to join Israel.
Sure. Canaanites had in general no interest at all to join Israel and live like them. However, joining Israel means bowing down to Israel’s God and place themselves under the Mosaic law (provided it was during the time of the Mosaic law).
<>>REASONS<> Galatians could be misinterpreted to also prove that you don’t have to do anything to be saved.
And my article was to show that there are indeed commandments which we still must obey. We are not living in lawlessness.
<<And indeed people do so, as you know. Paul also says in the Letter that uncleanness is a work of the flesh. What happend to nothing is unclean?
The question is what "unclean" is. As I showed you in the case with Peter, what is clean/unclean can change if God deem it should. Anyone who sins is unclean, and what is sin? Disobeying God. There were commandments to obey long before Moses, and there are still commandments/laws to obey. Again, Paul was annoyed with the Galatians that they still taught circumcision as a requirement. It isn't. We are not under the Mosaic law.
<<Even David who was under the Law of Moses said this.
King David lived before Jesus death on the cross.
<<Paul says here man is not justified by the Law if it is not through the faith of Christ. Man’s obedience to God does not count unless it is done in faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. All have sinned and all need a savior and no one can get eternal life by just doing good and obeying laws. We need Christ’s atonement.
Amen
<< I’m showing you some serious flaws in your reasoning
Where? I've read what you've said so far and most is already addressed in the article.
<<No, you are interjecting your biases into the text of Acts 10. It says nothing of food.
EATING concerns food, does it not? Peter were also taught new things about gentiles, such as Cornelius, but this doesn't change the fact that God showed him animals and told him to kill and eat. Peter protested but God declared that he is the one who decides what is clean/unclean, so Peter could absolutely obey his command to eat. Your idea that it's figurative, and that God really didn't want Peter to kill and eat animals, makes God to be a God of confusion.
Instead of trying to get the Bible to fit a certain preconceived idea, you should try to read the Bible as it is. In context.
GBU
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“<>> This proves you have some problems comprehending things.
“EATING concerns food, does it not? Peter were also taught new things about gentiles, such as Cornelius, but this doesn’t change the fact that God showed him animals and told him to kill and eat. Peter protested but God declared that he is the one who decides what is clean/unclean, so Peter could absolutely obey his command to eat. Your idea that it’s figurative, and that God really didn’t want Peter to kill and eat animals, makes God to be a God of confusion.”
>>> It was a vision and the vision was explained what it meant. I’m not arguing about this anymore.
“Instead of trying to get the Bible to fit a certain idea, you should try to read the Bible as it is. In context.”
>>> This is exactly what I am trying to do. I’m trying to take the Scripture holistically rather than in isolation. there really isn’t that many “anti-Torah” passages that seem to say what you say. There are only a few in Acts and Paul which could easily be interpreted in light of the vast majority of texts which clearly say the opposite. Remember, Peter himself said Paul had things in his letters which are hard to understand and easily twisted to support lawlessness.
“The question is what “unclean” is. As I showed you in the case with Peter, what is clean/unclean can change if God deem it should. Anyone who sins is unclean, and what is sin? Disobeying God. There were commandments to obey long before Moses, and there are still commandments/laws to obey. Again, Paul was annoyed with the Galatians that they still taught circumcision as a requirement. It isn’t. We are not under the Mosaic law.”
>>> What is unclean? It is not ambiguous. If Paul when saying uncleanness is a sin and all he means is “moral” sins then why mention it as a separate sin category when mentioning other “moral” sins? Paul isn’t just talking about spiritual uncleanness but physical uncleanness:
2Co_7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh AND spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
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Hello
<>> It was a vision and the vision was explained what it meant.
I find it strange that the holy Spirit would influence holy men of God to write the Bible in this way. If Peter sees all those animals and God tells him in the vision to KILL AND EAT, and you tell me that he really did not mean KILL AND EAT but something entirely different, then we cannot trust anything in the Bible. This is not the right way to read the Bible, but it’s rather picking and choosing. If God meant something entirely different, it’s really confusing to command Peter to do something he really didn’t mean at all. As well as confusing all Bible readers.
>>> This is exactly what I am trying to do. I’m trying to take the Scripture holistically rather than in isolation.
I’m sorry but you’re doing the exact opposite, and your treatment of Acts 10 shows it.
<< There are only a few in Acts and Paul which could easily be interpreted in light of the vast majority of texts which clearly say the opposite.
You have shown me nothing so far which would be the "opposite" but I have proven to you what Paul's sentiments were. He opposed circumcision heavily in many of his letters, time and again. It's not possible to ignore.
<< Remember, Peter himself said Paul had things in his letters which are hard to understand and easily twisted to support lawlessness.
And what exactly did Peter say? He supported Paul wholeheartedly and he said "which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures". So Peter warns people from twisting the words of Paul. Is this not what you are doing?
<< If Paul when saying uncleanness is a sin and all he means is ”moral” sins then why mention it as a separate sin category when mentioning other ”moral” sins?
Again, "law" can be understood slightly different depending on context. Paul lists examples of SIN, and sinning makes us unclean. What we eat doesn't make us unclean.
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