If we sin, we have an advocate in Jesus so we are constantly forgiven? – 1 John 2:1

1 john 2.jpgMy little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1)

”Advocate” is a translation from the Greek noun Παράκλητον (Strong’s 3875), and apart from the above verse we can find this word also in John 14:15; 26, John 15:26 and John 16:7, with the meaning of either Comforter or Helper – which the holy Spirit is often called.

John writes his letter to advise the recipients to avoid sinning (among other things), suggesting that they can avoid it (which also Titus 2:11-12 confirms). Unfortunately it is quite common that Christians with the reformed theology view understand this verse to mean that we really should not sin but if we do sin we still have no reason to worry because we always have an advocate in Jesus Christ who always forgives his elect no matter what they do.

That would be another way of saying that we have a license to sin, which of course the Bible does not teach. Just like in a secular court it is not certain that we will get an acquittal just because we have a defense attorney, or perhaps we should compare it with the idea that we will not even get a defense attorney unless we meet certain requirements (such as requesting one in the first place, and avoid making further crimes in the meantime). We will not be forgiven unless we REPENT. We will never be forgiven in the midst of our sins or if we have no intention of leaving the old man behind and live a new kind of life. For those who are in Christ (those who believe in him, follow him and obey him) can rest assured they have an advocate in Jesus Christ and that their past sins are forgiven. Their future sins are certainly not forgiven (that would be a license to sin) but they do not need to take an oath to never ever sin again.

1 John 2: 1-2 Being a propitiation for the sins of the whole world

Two verses after 1 John 2:1 (1 John 2:3) we can read how we can know that we know Jesus Christ. The answer is: ”if we keep his commandments”. If anyone claims to know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. This is not legalism but the word of God. The teaching that we can successfully be faithful to God should never be labelled as legalism and something ugly. V. 5 mentions people who do keep his word, which means they truly exist and are not mere fantasies. We should walk as Jesus walked (v. 6), rather than hiding behind Jesus and pretend that our Father does not see our sins. We cannot fool God. The darkness should be in our past once the light has come into our life.

When reading 1 John 1-2 we can see that Jesus is the propitiation (an ”offer”) not only for a select group of people (like ”the elect), but he is the propitiation for the whole world. To be an offer for the sins of the whole world does not mean that the sins of the whole world will automatically be forgiven and forgotten (like the very minute that Jesus died on the cross). Just like in the old testament, during the animal sacrifice system, it was a requirement for the Israelites to confess their sins and repent for them while the priest offered up animals as a propitiation for their sins. Merely killing animals on an altar will not remove any sins – unless people also repent and understand the meaning of this process. We all have the opportunity to get all our sins erased, even the sins of the most vicious criminals, so it is a universal offer – albeit tied to conditions.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.3 And HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.– 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 14 — I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. —17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF GOD ABIDETH FOR EVER. —24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that EVERY ONE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS is born of him.

1 John 1:8 – the famous ”sin verse”

In the previous chapter (1 John 1) we find the famous 1 John 1:8, so commonly quoted by those who would like to normalize sins also among Christians, but 1 John 1:6 and 1:9 are sadly not quoted just as often. The whole context is important: We have all sinned. IF we confess our sins and start walking in the light (notice the conditions) Jesus Christ will cleanse us from our sins and we will be forgiven. 

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Rom. 8:26 and Rom. 8:27 – intercessionrom. 8.jpg

Also Rom. 8:26 and 27 are often used as an attempt to support the idea that we can be saved in our sins, but such promise cannot be found there either. The holy Spirit is given to those who believe in Jesus and who have repented for their sins, and the focus of Rom. 8:26 is the content of our prayers and the holy Spirit as our Helper. Note that there are two different Greek words for ”make intercession” in Rom. 26 and 27.

Rom. 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

”Maketh intercession” above is a translation from the Greek verb συναντιλαμβάνομαι (Strong’s 4878) with the meaning of lend a hand along with, assist jointly to perform some task, cooperate with, help, etc. Apart from the above verse you will only find this word in Luke 10:40 (Martha’s desire to get cooperation from her sister when it comes to serving).

Rom. 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

”Makes intercession” above is a translation from the Greek verb ἐντυγχάνω (Strong’s 1793), and apart from the above two verses you can find this word also in Acts 25:24, Rom. 11:2 and Hebrews 7:25 – with the meaning of making a petition for something. Does Christ do this only when it comes to the saints? Well, yes, since the saints are those who have chosen to follow Christ and repented for their sins.

Read what else Rom. 8 says below. There is life to get IF we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (those who live this way are in Jesus Christ). Otherwise we must expect death, and that warning goes for Christians as well. We have a great Helper to accomplish this, and thankfully we get more than one chance to do what we successfully can be doing.

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.—4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his..13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

9 tankar om “If we sin, we have an advocate in Jesus so we are constantly forgiven? – 1 John 2:1

  1. You don’t understand the word. First, it says forgiven of last sins because once you are saved and washed in the blood of Jesus no sin is imputed(charged) to your account any longer. Second you ripe scripture out of context. Walking in the spirit simple means salvation, same as walking in the light or walking in the darkness Romans 8:9 clearly shows that. When 1 John meantions obeying his commandments he makes it clear in 1 John 3 what those are. It is believing on Jesus and loving our neighbor as our self.

    Gilla

    • Hello Luke

      If what you say is right, then we have a license to sin and our sins are forgiven before we even make them. The Bible, however, does not claim that you’re free to sin once you’re cleansed from your past sins. It’s Satan who claims that sinning will not lead to death, but he was lying. The opposite is true.

      Walking is something we must do. If we love our neighbors as ourselves, we don’t hurt them by lying, stealing, committing adultery, etc. A branch can be cut off from the vine due to lack of fruit.

      God bless!

      Gilla

      • The issue is you keep making the claim we have the license to sin if that is true. But you are making that assertion. If grace couldn’t be abused in the manner you are saying is liscense then what Paul was teaching is totally pointless. Paul said to not use grace as license and also to make no provision of the flesh. If the gospel was taught the way you are teaching it then Paul in no way would have had to bring correction. With your theology none of the corinthians were saved, because they heeped up sin. No I am not teaching license, grace is to bring transformation. Sin brings its own suffering and hardens the heart. Hebrews is constantly warning about sinning and hardening yourself to the point of apostasy. Also you saying a branch is cut off from lack of fruit but I believe that is apostasy. For Jesus also said any branch in him will bare much fruit. So how can a branch in him bare no fruit but also has to bare much fruit? The branch the doesn’t remain in him is burned up. You keep connecting walking in the light to morality but the gospel of John shows what being in the light is over and over which is to be in Christ. Yes we are to love and walk as he did, but you are creating a hyper legalistic view that makes everything depend on behavior. There is little grace to the way you teach, mostly fear.

        Gilla

      • Hello there Luke

        << Paul said to not use grace as license and also to make no provision of the flesh. If the gospel was taught the way you are teaching it then Paul in no way would have had to bring correction.

        I'm afraid I don't understand. Since some Christians might choose to sin (or misunderstand), Paul had to give corrections. Not everyone needs corrections (those who live righteously).

        << With your theology none of the corinthians were saved, because they heeped up sin.

        Paul did not say that all of the Corinthians, without exception, sinned. I don't even believe that the incorrect use of speaking in tongues was a sin if the case is that they truly misunderstood the concept. Misunderstanding is not a sin, and Paul corrected the Corinthian church about this gift. Hopefully they understood what he meant and changed behavior accordingly.

        <<grace is to bring transformation.

        Amen!

        << For Jesus also said any branch in him will bare much fruit. So how can a branch in him bare no fruit but also has to bare much fruit?

        Jesus is the one saying it and I'm just quoting him in my blog article. He himself says that a branch can be IN HIM and bare fruit, but he also says that a branch IN HIM can be cut off due to lack of fruit (it no longer bears fruit despite that it used to). Only branches that bear fruit remain in him, but if that is no longer the case, it must be cut off.

        <<The branch the doesn’t remain in him is burned up.

        Amen. The branch that used to be in him, and which no longer bears fruit, is cut off and burned up.

        <<You keep connecting walking in the light to morality but the gospel of John shows what being in the light is over and over which is to be in Christ.

        Walking (something we DO) in the light is the same as being morally righteous. If we are led by the Spirit (being in Christ) we obey his commandments and bear much fruit. So it's intertwined. It's not certain that each person will always choose to be led by the Spirit and obey his commandments, and we know what happens to a person who does not repent.

        <<Yes we are to love and walk as he did, but you are creating a hyper legalistic view that makes everything depend on behavior. There is little grace to the way you teach, mostly fear.

        What is hyper legalistic? That we are required to be faithful to Jesus? That Jesus requires that we obey his commandments and make sure that we do not murder, steal, commit adultery, lie, etc? Jesus is the one telling us that we must be perfect. And you speak about grace, but I've already agreed with you that "grace is to bring transformation", which is a very good description.

        Thanks for your input!

        Gilla

  2. Wow way to butcher the Bible to fit your sinless perfection theology. First of all you aren’t being exactly far with the use of advocate in verse 2:1, it also means one called, or sent for to assist another; an advocate, one who pleads the cause of another, 1 Jn. 2:1; genr. one present to render various beneficial service, and thus the Paraclete, whose influence and operation were to compensate for the departure of Christ himself, Jn. 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7*

    Also it’s frustrating how you add things to scripture Romans 8:27 doesn’t say he only makes intercession if we repent of all sin or certain sin. You added that to fit your dogma.

    Also it’s clear in Romans walk means to abide or be in Christ, it is a state. Romans 8:7-8 which you didn’t put in bold states the carnally minded are against the law of God and can’t even obey it. But then goes on to say those in the spirit have the spirit of God dwelling in them aka the Holy Spirit. Those who don’t have the spirit of God aka the unsaved are those in the flesh.

    Walking in the light is the same in John as being in Christ. John is going back and forth battling the false teaching of the Gnostics. The problem with most of you perfectionist is that you don’t look at the Greek tense well. Another thing, John clearly showed a sin not unto death and a sin unto death, but you claim Christians can’t sin at all and be saved. How about the Corinthians who were in terrible sins and yet Paul still said they were Christians, they were carnal and needed correction. Also under your view which I know is similar to Jesse Morrell and I know you’ll claim you don’t teach it’s impossible for Christians to sin. No one is saying that. We are saying you are teaching sinless perfect as in you have to make sure you never sin to stay saved. Not that it’s impossible but if you do even once you are unsaved until you repent. Sorry but if that’s true God could never disciple his sons because ever time you sin you are no longer a child of God. Your theology has a ton of holes and puts a time on Christians. You cry we provide a license to sin! Well my issue is if you couldn’t abuse grace then Paul stating grace is not a license to sin would make no sense. If Christians were taught what you teach it could never even be stated. Also grace never abounds in your theology. Well not until one repents and you can’t show me a single New Testament scripture that states a Christian has to fully stop sinning to be forgiven. Even if you use 1 John 1:9, confessing isn’t the same as repenting. Look up articles on 1john 3:6-9 there are much better interpretations then the claim Christians shouldn’t sin. In fact if you push 1 John 3:6-9 you couldn’t claim a Christian could sin at all.

    Gilla

    • Hello there

      I’m replying as I read ….

      When you claim that I have a sinless perfection theology, exactly what do you mean by that since I don’t make this claim myself? Is it the teaching that I believe we can be faithful to Jesus? Is this the awful teaching that you fight against?

      << it also means one called, or sent for to assist another; —-

      How does this change what I wrote? Does it mean that the person assisting must do so unconditionally?

      <<Also it’s frustrating how you add things to scripture Romans 8:27 doesn’t say he only makes intercession if we repent of all sin or certain sin. You added that to fit your dogma.

      Are you saying that the Bible does NOT teach that we must repent in order to be forgiven? It's not my idea but the Bible's.

      <<Also it’s clear in Romans walk means to abide or be in Christ, it is a state. Romans 8:7-8 which you didn’t put in bold states the carnally minded are against the law of God and can’t even obey it.

      Right, if you're carnally minded you can't obey and that's because you're carnally minded and focus on the flesh and on sin. You can't obey if your focus is on the world. The solution is to repent and follow Jesus which we all can do according to Acts 17. You will get the Holy Spirit if you repent and obey:

      Acts 2:38 — REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

      Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY HIM.

      <<Walking in the light is the same in John as being in Christ.

      Can you be in Christ while still sinning and showing bad fruit? Why then does Jesus warn us that we can be cut off the wine (him) due to lack of fruit as in John 15?

      <<John is going back and forth battling the false teaching of the Gnostics.

      The Gnostics taught that we always sin due to a fallen nature, but that we're apparently still fine. This sounds like something that you're teaching.

      << The problem with most of you perfectionist

      Are you again coming against my teaching that we do not have a fallen nature that makes us sin, and that we can and should be victorious over sin? Do you also believe that God is mad at me for teaching that we can and should be faithful and obedient to him?

      <<is that you don’t look at the Greek tense well.

      Not that you have to know Greek to understand the Bible, but I do use my education in Greek theology when I read the Bible.

      << John clearly showed a sin not unto death and a sin unto death, but you claim Christians can’t sin at all and be saved.

      There is indeed a sin not unto death since John mentions it (a sin not severe enough to produce death), but I hope you don't take this to mean that Christians can continue to sin and still be saved? They will only escape death if the only sin they are guilty of is the one John is talking about. Not in the other accounts of sin. It does sound like your teaching is semi-Gnostic, and even worse, it sounds like you agree with Satan's teaching that sinning (being disobedient to God) will NOT cause death as he told Eve in Genesis. He lied! The opposite is true. Why are you siding with him?

      << How about the Corinthians who were in terrible sins and yet Paul still said they were Christians, they were carnal and needed correction.

      Paul never says that carnal Christians are still saved but he does warn the Corinthians about carnality since it produces death. He does not say that all those Corinthians were carnal but that carnality was among them. Paul is clearly teaching that a person with a carnal mind is not saved but dead:

      Rom: 8:6 For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is ENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      <<< We are saying you are teaching sinless perfect as in you have to make sure you never sin to stay saved.

      The Bible is teaching that you can't serve two Masters. The Bible makes a distinction between sinners and saints, and there is no such thing as sinning saints. You don't get one single shot at staying holy, but mixing righteousness with unrighteousness or "sinning less than before" will not save you. Again, it's Satan who teaches that sinning will not cause death. Don't be deceived:

      1Jn 3:7 Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: he that DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: WHOSOEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD, neither he that loveth not his brother.

      << Not that it’s impossible but if you do even once you are unsaved until you repent.

      Are you disagreeing with Jesus Christ who started out his journey on earth by teaching repentance? Of course you must repent in order to be forgiven! How will our sins be blotted out?:

      Acts 3:19 REPENT ye therefore, and be converted, THAT YOUR SINS MAY BE BLOTTED OUT, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

      <<Sorry but if that’s true God could never disciple his sons because ever time you sin you are no longer a child of God.

      This certainly sounds like those son constantly sin. Why is that? Which sins can you not stop doing for God? Where in the Bible can you read that Jesus died so that we can continue to sin with no fear of punishment and without risking spiritual death? If sin was the problem, and Jesus died for it, why would the outcome be that we are now free to sin?

      <<Your theology has a ton of holes and puts a time on Christians.

      So you mean I'm going against God and I'm therefore a sinner? Why would this be a problem if you believe Christians are still saved even if they sin? What danger does this pose to other Christians who can never lose their salvation? Or are you saying that Christians are still saved even if they sin EXCEPT for the sin (and the teaching) that we can be faithful to God because THAT sin is worse and upsets the Father to such an extent that your soul is in danger? This sounds like the teaching that sinners will go to heaven (if they are Christian sinners) and the righteous to hell. If you read the following verses, where would you place your teaching and my teaching? Aren't you the one teaching that you can sin and still be fine (just like Satan in Genesis)?:

      Matt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall TEACH MEN SO, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 For I say unto you, That EXCEPT YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL EXCEED THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SCRIBES and Pharisees, YE SHALL IN NO CASE ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

      <<You cry we provide a license to sin!

      Isn't this exactly what you're doing?

      <<Well my issue is if you couldn’t abuse grace then Paul stating grace is not a license to sin would make no sense.

      Who is teaching that we couldn't abuse grace? This is exactly what we can do, and why Paul is warning against it. He warns against it because it leads to spiritual death. Unless you repent.

      << Also grace never abounds in your theology.

      God's grace? The grace that teaches you to avoid sin and stay holy here and now?:

      Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,12 Teaching us that, DENYING ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

      << Well not until one repents and you can’t show me a single New Testament scripture that states a Christian has to fully stop sinning to be forgiven.

      There are loads. I've shown you some in this post but there are of course more. The Bible teaches that we should leave the old man behind. Are you saying we should drag him along on our journey? Where in the Bible can you read that we can have our sins and our salvation too, apart from Gen. 3:4?

      <<Even if you use 1 John 1:9, confessing isn’t the same as repenting.

      Right, confessing sins is not the same as repenting, but part of it. Confessing sins, and continue on committing those sins will not save you.

      <<Look up articles on 1john 3:6-9 there are much better interpretations then the claim Christians shouldn’t sin.

      Read again what you wrote. So the teaching that Christians shouldn't sin is what you attack and strongly come out against? Is God pleased with you when you spend time warning people against obeying him? Why in the world would the God of the Bible be upset with people who teach that we should and can be faithful to him? Isn't it more likely that he is disappointed with those who teach the exact opposite? Like yourself?

      Gilla

      • Its honestly frustrating you are picking abc choosing what I am saying out of context text.
        You left out “ and advocate that pleads the case for another”
        Also let me say this as clear as I can one last time. You are teaching sinless perfect for you claim that a true Christian does not go on sinning. So that means a Christian will have to get to a point where they never sin again. You can say it’s ok to sin a few times and also hold to your view of 1 John 3:6-9. I’ve heard individuals like yourself who will claim they don’t teach sinless perfect and yet they teach every time you sin you lose salvation until you repent. That isn’t biblical. No I’m not saying we don’t repent to be forgive, what I am saying is what you consider repentance is wrong. Metanoia is a change of mind, every time repent is used in terms of salvation the object of the change of mind is Jesus not sin. Once a Christian is saved we turn from sin because we were freed from sin. But that doesn’t mean we won’t ever sin again nor does it mean we lose salvation every time we sin.
        Yes you can be in Christ and sin. Paul clearly shows the Corinthians are still saved even though they are in sin. 1 Corinthians 6:11 clearly shows this. In John 15 Jesus is speaking of those who do no remain in him. This is speaking of apostasy, not struggling with sin. If you believe that every time a Christian sins they aren’t in Jesus then that causes a whole mess of issues with Paul correcting Christians. Peter sinned by segregating himself from the gentiles, but if you said he wasn’t saved your be crazy.
        No actually the Gnostics believed only the flesh was sinful but their spirits were pure without Christ. So they could sin all they wanted. They also didn’t believe Jesus came in the flesh because the flesh is sinful. If you want to hold tight to your view then you can not even allow one sin after salvation. Don’t call them mistakes or sins of ignorance. All sins wage is death.

        Again the carnal mind and being in the flesh is speaking of an unbeliever for it says they can not even obey the law of God. See that? They are hostile to Gods law and can’t even obey it. This isn’t a Christian that is battling sin.

        The problem is that your interpretation of 1 John 3:6-9 deals with 1 John 2:1 that shows if we sin we have an advocate. You’d have to hold to sinless perfect to be consistent. If you hold the present tense of 1 John 3:6-9 means that a true Christian does not sin meaning can not sin even once and be saved you can’t deny you teach sinless perfection to be saved.
        You totally skipped over my point. How can God disciple true sons if true sons can not sin? For let’s say a true son sins once, well by your belief he is no longer a son so how could God discipline him?
        You are also mixing teaching in Matthew 5 Jesus is speaking of the law of Moses which we are not under. Jesus was under the law of Moses at the time of his earthly ministry. Scripture says if you seek to be justified by keeping the law you have to keep the entire thing. Do you do that? I don’t teach it’s ok to sin. I just believe Christians still struggle with sin and that’s the point of Jesus death. Your view wouldn’t be held by Jews for Jews constant sinned and had to provide a sacrifice. So now the sacrifice made once for all can only forgive sins once and after that there’s no salvation? How is that a better covenant? We are freed from sin but we progress in said freedom to maturity. Even Hebrews showed Christians who should have been mature but Paul said he had to talk to them as babes in Christ. Wouldn’t it be considered a sin for these said Christians not to go on to maturity? Since they weren’t you can’t believe they were being obedient.
        Lol way to totally deflect the sin never abounds in your theology.
        Yes Titus teaches we should deny worldly lust, it doesn’t teach sinless perfection nor does it say if you sin you aren’t saved. It’s saying since you’ve been freedom from sin walk in that freedom. Don’t use that grace as an opportunity to sin. The issue is we agree we shouldn’t walk in sin, where we disagree is that one loses salvation every time they sin or actually what you believe is one can’t even sin more then once and be a child of God. They can’t repent more than once. Issue with that is Jesus even speaks of your brother sinning against you multiple times and you having to forgive him multiple times.
        Lol but it says if you confess your sins he will cleanse you of all unrighteousness. Your the one adding to adding to scripture. That if you do those sins again you aren’t saved or forgive which takes us back to sinless perfection. Based on your view you have to 100% stop sinning to be saved. If you don’t think that’s sinless perfection I don’t know what you think it is.
        The last thing I wrote about 1 John 3:6-9 was a miss step. I didn’t mean to say shouldn’t sin. I meant to say that real Christians couldn’t sin. 1 John 3:6-9 is in the present tense. But if you hold to the absolute view then you’d also have to hold 1 John 1:8 if we say we have no sin we call him a liar. 1 John 1:8 is also in the present tense.
        All I’m saying is that you are ignoring a lot of scripture that shows Christians who have sinned and they are still saved. You can’t tell me the Corinthians weren’t saved because it never says that.
        1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
        This is Paul saying this to them after correcting them for suing each other, after correcting them calling them fleshly and infants in Christ, saying there was strifes and jealousy among them which are sins not mere mistakes. Even those in sin who are removed aren’t said to not be saved, but are removed from fellowship so that they may turn from those sins and return to the fellowship. That is God discipline a son.
        In your theology there is zero room for God to ever discipline a son.

        Gilla

      • Hey there!

        I’m responding as I read again …

        << You are teaching sinless perfect for you claim that a true Christian does not go on sinning.

        I'm not saying that Christians cannot sin and will never ever choose to sin after his conversion. We know from the Bible and from real life that this is not always true. I AM saying, however, that you cannot have your salvation and your sin at the same time. If you mix sin with righteousness, also your righteousness is like filthy rags. You cannot serve two masters. You must REPENT and leave the old man behind. This is the teaching from the Bible.

        <<So that means a Christian will have to get to a point where they never sin again.

        You must really be bothered by verses like this:

        1Jn 3:7 Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: he that DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: WHOSOEVER DOETH NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD, neither he that loveth not his brother.

        << I’ve heard individuals like yourself who will claim they don’t teach sinless perfect and yet they teach every time you sin you lose salvation until you repent.

        The BIBLE says that you must repent in order to be forgiven. And what do you mean with "every time"? As in daily sins? Again, if you regularly sin you have not repented.

        << Metanoia is a change of mind

        Yes, that you change your mind about your previous life style and decide to leave the old sinful man behind.

        <<Once a Christian is saved we turn from sin because we were freed from sin. But that doesn’t mean we won’t ever sin again nor does it mean we lose salvation every time we sin.

        Make up your mind now, do we turn from sin, OR do we continue to sin?

        <<Yes you can be in Christ and sin.

        You are singing the same tune as the devil, and the Bible teaches that I should not be deceived by such teachings. So why is it so important to repent if we are still saved whether we repent or not? Why does the Bible claim that we cannot serve two Masters if you claim we can?

        <<Paul clearly shows the Corinthians are still saved even though they are in sin. 1 Corinthians 6:11 clearly shows this.

        No, that verse shows that the Corinthians WERE sinners, but that they are not any more. Because they are washed, and they are washed because they repented and were forgiven. Don't forget the previous verses where Paul clearly explains that sinners are not saved:

        1 Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

        So Paul tells us that unrighteous people (sinners) shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God, and you teach the exact opposite.

        << In John 15 Jesus is speaking of those who do no remain in him. This is speaking of apostasy, not struggling with sin.

        Jesus is warning people IN HIM (in the vine) that they must continue doing so to show good fruit. Or else they will be cut off. What is "struggling with sin"? Another name for "sin"?

        << If you believe that every time a Christian sins they aren’t in Jesus then that causes a whole mess of issues with Paul correcting Christians.

        It's possible to correct Christians with the hope that they will turn away from their sins. Also note that Paul was also correcting behavior which was not considered a sin but rather a misunderstanding. Some Corinthians believed they did the right thing to stand up in church and speak in tongues with no interpreter, but Paul explained why it was not a good idea. Paul never deviated from his stance that sinning will cause death.

        <<No actually the Gnostics believed only the flesh was sinful but their spirits were pure without Christ. So they could sin all they wanted.

        Exactly so what is the difference between the Gnostic view and your view? Are you not teaching the same thing?

        <<If you want to hold tight to your view then you can not even allow one sin after salvation.

        Why not? That sin could be repented of and the person could be restored.

        <<Again the carnal mind and being in the flesh is speaking of an unbeliever for it says they can not even obey the law of God.

        The solution is to seek God, repent and start to obey him. But if they prefer to be carnal and live in the world, they cannot please and obey God.

        <<They are hostile to Gods law and can’t even obey it.

        If someone cannot obey God, as in being prevented from doing it, they this person would be innocent. In reality, we can all seek and obey God and we are created for this very purpose.

        << 1 John 2:1 that shows if we sin we have an advocate.

        Does it say unconditionally?

        << If you hold the present tense of 1 John 3:6-9 means that a true Christian does not sin meaning can not sin even once and be saved you can’t deny you teach sinless perfection to be saved.

        Since I don't believe that Christians cannot sin (even Jesus had the capability of sinning), nor that we only get one single chance to live right, it would be wrong to claim that I believe in "sinless perfectionism". The Bible teaches that you're a sinner if you sin, and sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God.

        << How can God disciple true sons if true sons can not sin?

        I've never claimed he "can not sin" so it's a mute point.

        << For let’s say a true son sins once, well by your belief he is no longer a son so how could God discipline him?

        No, I've never phrased it as though "he is no longer a son". When the prodigal son left his father and lived in deep sin, he was still a son but he was NOT saved. His father still loved his son deeply and hoped he would return. Not until he did so was he saved again. The prodigal son went from life, to death, to life again. This is again what the BIBLE teaches.

        <<You are also mixing teaching in Matthew 5 Jesus is speaking of the law of Moses which we are not under.

        Jesus is contrasting the law of Moses with the law of love/grace. We are not under the Mosaic law, but we are not living in lawlessness. There are still commandments to obey, and if we don't our souls are in danger. Jesus says in the same chapter "29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into HELL". and "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect".

        <<I don’t teach it’s ok to sin.

        That is exactly what you do. Let me quote you from this very post "Yes you can be in Christ and sin". You claim repeatedly that Christians will not lose their salvation even if they sin.

        << I just believe Christians still struggle with sin and that’s the point of Jesus death.

        What is "struggle with sin"? Sin?

        << So now the sacrifice made once for all can only forgive sins once and after that there’s no salvation?

        The problem was sin. That's why Jesus died. The solution can therefore not be that we can continue sinning in peace.

        << We are freed from sin but we progress in said freedom to maturity.

        Freed from sin, as in, we no longer sin? No you probably believe that we are free from the punishment of sin, and that we can continue sinning with no fear of any consequences. When Paul speaks about being freed from sin, he means we avoid sin!

        << Even Hebrews showed Christians who should have been mature but Paul said he had to talk to them as babes in Christ.

        Sins are always sins, but it's also possible to grow as Christians and be of more use. It's possible to show even more good fruit.

        <<Yes Titus teaches we should deny worldly lust, it doesn’t teach sinless perfection nor does it say if you sin you aren’t saved. It’s saying since you’ve been freedom from sin walk in that freedom.

        Now you are both changing and adding to what Titus said. Since we can and should say no to worldly lusts today, we can live totally righteous lives. We are expected to do so. He does not say that you can sin freely with no fear of any consequences.

        <<Don’t use that grace as an opportunity to sin.

        According to your theology, why can't you use grace as an excuse to sin? You can't lose your salvation anyway, so why not?

        <<The issue is we agree we shouldn’t walk in sin

        Why can't you walk in sin according to you? You claim we have a fire insurance as Christians, so why not boldly sin?

        <<<, where we disagree is that one loses salvation every time they sin or actually what you believe is one can’t even sin more then once and be a child of God.

        You are again ascribing views to me that I don't have. "Every time they sin" sounds like regular sin, and if that is the case you have not repented and are not saved.

        <<They can’t repent more than once.

        Please don't ascribe views to me that I don't have.

        << Issue with that is Jesus even speaks of your brother sinning against you multiple times and you having to forgive him multiple times.

        Yes, that is a general principle from Jesus to show that there are no upper limits, but on the other hand he also teaches that sinning will lead to death and that it's better to cut off a hand if it makes you sin, in order to avoid hell. We can also read in the Bible that we should forgive if the other persons *repents*. If you haven't had a change of mind about your sin, you have not repented.

        << I meant to say that real Christians couldn’t sin. 1 John 3:6-9 is in the present tense.

        This means we should be in agreement that you don't sin if you are in Christ and are lead by the holy Spirit.

        << But if you hold to the absolute view then you’d also have to hold 1 John 1:8 if we say we have no sin we call him a liar. 1 John 1:8 is also in the present tense.

        And 1 John 1:6 and 1 John 1:9 as well. We can't just take one verse here and there and make up a story. Or do you sin constantly every second around the clock? Is there not one minute a day where you can say "I have no sin"? Please read the verses before and after 1:8. We are not forgiven until we confess our sins and repent, and if we walk in darkness (if we sin) we are liars and not saved.

        <<All I’m saying is that you are ignoring a lot of scripture that shows Christians who have sinned and they are still saved.

        You have not shown me one single verse which makes this claim.

        << 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

        WERE, WERE, WERE. They were sinners, but then something happened. They were washed and this is the promise to those who confess their sins and repent.

        << . Even those in sin who are removed aren’t said to not be saved, but are removed from fellowship so that they may turn from those sins and return to the fellowship.

        A person who lives in sin must be removed from the congregation with the hope that he will repent and turn from his sins.

        GBU

        Gilla

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