The Septuagint is a Greek version of the Old Testament, and the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew (and small parts in Aramaic). The Septuagint had already existed before Jesus Christ was born, and it was the translation that Jesus himself used when he walked as a man on earth. Therefore it’s very interesting to see how the holy Spirit has rendered the translation of God’s word in the Septuagint. See for instance biblehub.com.
Exodus 3:14: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for BLASPHEMY; and because that thou, being a man, MAKEST THYSELF GOD.
The main claim by those who deny the Deity of Jesus (such as muslims and Jehova’s witnesses), is that since the Greek translation is “ho on”, then John 8:58 doesn’t prove that Jesus is God because of the slightly different wording of that verse compared with Ex. 3:14 (in Hebrew). The Hebrew word ehyeh derives from the verb root hayah meaning “to be”, and the Septuagint translates ehyeh asher ehyeh of Exodus 3:14 into Greek as “ego eimi ho on” (compare with John 8:58). This earliest of all translations thus associates Exodus 3:14 with the concept of absolute existence. The Septuagint translation can of course not be an exact rendering of the Hebrew.
Translating ehyeh as “I am” presents a interpretational difficulty since the word is not followed by WHAT he is, but the same difficulty applies when translating it as “I will be”. Will be what? The crucial difference between the two options is that whereas the words “I am” standing alone can be understood as God’s self-designation, the “I will be” cannot. When it comes to the Jewish Bible translations produced during the last 2300 years, there has been no consensus as to how the Exodus 3:14 should be translated, but fortunately we do have the Septuagint – translated by holy men of God. Moreover, it was not only God who spoke in the bush but the angel of the Lord, and the angel of the Lord is likely JESUS CHRIST – or else we are stuck with numerous Bible contradictions. (Note, that the angel of the Lord is not a created angel.)
Just because the two expressions are different, it doesn’t mean that they are different in meaning, and both expressions are basically synonymous in meaning since they point to the timeless existence of the Lord Jesus Christ. Why couldn’t for instance “the eternal God, the alpha and the omega” and “the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end”, be about the same person even though the words are slightly different? Had Jesus wished to say that he merely existed for a long time before Abraham—he could have said so by using the imperfect tense emen instead of the present tense eimi, and thus be saying “Before Abraham came into existence, I was”, but he didn’t say that.
If you find different renderings of John 8:58, it’s due to translators’ attempts to best express the Greek construction into the other language. We should be careful to not claim that a translation is “wrong” if there are different ways to convey the original meaning. Should the interpreter translate an expression by using a word for word translation (with the risk to confuse the reader), or should he instead try to convey the true meaning? If you’re unsure of the translation, then go to the original languages (Hebrew or Greek), to see the original expressions used, and also make a comparison with the Septuagint. However, no one should be required to study a foreign language in order to understand the Bible – which contains God’s simple words for his people. Exodus 3:14 is hardly the only Biblical reference to Jesus as God.
The Septuagint (the OT in Greek) equals “ego eimi” with God the Creator
Deut. 32:39 See now that I, EVEN I, AM HE (ego eimi LXX), and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he (ego eimi LXX).—10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.—13 For I the Lord thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM HE (ego eimi LXX)(ego eimi ego eimi – I AM I AM LXX) that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Isaiah 46:4 And even to your old age I am he (ego eimi LXX); and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.—15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 51:12 I, even I, am he (ego eimi ego eimi – I AM I AM LXX) that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;
Isaiah 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he (ego eimi LXX) hat doth speak: behold, it is I.
According to these passages Yahweh can say that he is the I AM because:
- He gives life
- He sustains and delivers
- No one can deliver out of his hands
- He is from ancient of days
- He forgives and blots out sins
- He alone declares the future and brings it to pass
- He comforts his people
Compare his claims with the claims of the Jesus
- He gives eternal life
- He raises the dead
- He sustains and delivers
- He is able to prevent anyone from delivering out of his hands
- He preserves believers from perishing
- He came down from heaven, i.e is from ancient of days
- He predicts the future and has it come to pass
- He forgives and blots out sins
- He gives comfort to his people
John. 6:16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.20 But he saith unto them, It is I (ego eimi); be not afraid.21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
Matt. 8:24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
Ps. 107:24 These see the works of the Lord, and his wonders in the deep.25 For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.26 They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.27 They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wit’s end.28 Then they cry unto the Lord in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.29 He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.30 Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.31 Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
Matt. 14:24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid. (not known KJV)
John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he (ego eimi), ye shall die in your sins.25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.—28 So Jesus said, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he (ego eimi).20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
The 10 times “ego eimi” is used without a predicate in John
- John 4:26 Jesus said to her “I who speak to you am He [ego eimi].”
- John 6:20 But He said to them, “It is I [ego eimi]; do not be afraid.”
- John 8:24 “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [ego eimi], you shall die in your sins.”
- John 8:28 Jesus therefore said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [ego eimi]”
- John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am. [ego eimi]”
- John 9:9 He kept saying, “I am [ego eimi] the one.”
- John 13:19 “From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am” [ego eimi].
- John 18:5 They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He *said to them, “I am [ego eimi].” And Judas also who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
- John 18:6 When therefore He said to them, “I am,” [ego eimi] they drew back, and fell to the ground.
- John 18:8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am [ego eimi]; if therefore you seek Me, let these go their way,”
Lightfoot (see Biblehub) suggests that the occurrences of the absolute “ego eimi” in John 8 and 13.19 should be translated “I am”, since the two words in the Greek are the same as those of the LXX in certain OT passages, like Deut. 32.39 and Is. 46.4 where God is the speaker, and thus confirms his Godhead.
Do read this article about the pre-existence of Jesus before the creation of the world.
In Exodus it is the Angel who is identified as Yahweh and the great I AM
Deut. 33:13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the Lord be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,—16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.
Malachi 3:1 states that the temple belongs to the Angel of the covenant, i.e. “the Lord who you are seeking will come to his temple.” This again proves that the Angel is Yahweh. Malachi also calls this Angel “the Lord” which in Hebrew is Ha Adon, and this is never used for anyone other than Yahweh. The fact that Malachi had no problem applying this title to the Angel demonstrates that Malachi believed that this Angel was God. There are even some Jewish sources that link Malachi 3:1 to Exodus 23:20-23:
“BEHOLD, I SEND AN ANGEL. The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Moses: ‘He who guarded the patriarchs will also guard the children’; for so you find in the case of Abraham that when he blessed his son Isaac, he said: The L-rd, the G-d of heaven … He will send His angel before thee (Gen. xxiv, 7). And what did Jacob say to his children? ‘The angel who hath redeemed me from all evil, etc. (ibid. xlviii, 16). He hath redeemed me from the hand of Esau, from Laban, and he it was who fed and sustained me during the years of famine’ (referring all this to an angel – one sent by G-d for that particular purpose). G-d said to Moses: ‘Now also, He who guarded the fathers will protect the children,’ as it says, BEHOLD, I SEND AN ANGEL. Wherever the angel appeared, the Shechinah appeared, as it says, And the angel of the L-rd appeared unto him in a flame of fire. (Ex. iii, 2), and immediately after, it says, G-d called unto him (ibid., 4). Moreover, salvation cometh to Israel wherever they cry unto Him (whenever Israel cries unto G-d and the angel appears, he is a herald of salvation); at the thorn-bush – Behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto Me (ibid. 9); in the case of Gideon – And the angel of the L-rd came … and the angel of the L-rd appeared … and the L-rd … said: Go in this thy might, and save Israel (Judg. vi, 11-14). In the millennium, likewise, when he (the angel; he will be the herald announcing the coming of the L-rd and of true salvation) will reveal himself, salvation will come to Israel, as it says,Behold, I send My messenger, and he shall clear the way before Me (Mal. iii, i).” (Rabbi Dr. S.M. Lehrman, Midrash Rabbah: Volume III: Exodus [London: The Soncino Press, 1983], pp. 412-13)
Jewish Tradition viewed Malachi 3:1 as a prophecy of the Messiah:
The Lord is the King Messiah; He is also the Angel of the Covenant. Rabbi David Kimchi
The Lord is both the Divine Majesty, and the Angel of the Covenant, for the sentence is doubled. Aben Ezra
The Lord may be explained of the King Messiah. Mashmiah Jeshua, fol.76
For those who cannot look upon the Son Himself, behold Him in His reflected light, even thus do they regard THE IMAGE OF GOD, WHO IS HIS ANGEL, THE WORD [Logos], as God Himself. (De Plant Noe) Philo Judaeus
I AM in different languages – Ex. 3:14
Is it likely that all Hebrew and Theology scholars across the globe, all made a huge translation error?
2 Mos. 3:14 Gud sade till Mose: “Jag är den Jag Är.” Och han sade vidare: “Så skall du säga till Israels barn: Jag Är har sänt mig till er.” (SFB)
14 Gud sade till Mose: »Jag är den jag är.» Och han sade vidare: »Så skall du säga till Israels barn: ‘Jag är’ har sänt mig till eder. (1917)
14 Og Gud sa til Moses: Jeg er den jeg er ; og han sa: Så skal du si til Israels barn: “Jeg er” har sendt mig til eder. (Det norsk bibelselskap 1930)
14 Þá sagði Guð við Móse: “Ég er sá, sem ég er.” Og hann sagði: “Svo skalt þú segja Ísraelsmönnum: ,Ég er` sendi mig til yðar.” Icelandic Bible
14 Alors Dieu dit à Moïse:—Je suis celui qui est. Puis il ajouta: Voici ce que tu diras aux Israélites: Je suis m’a envoyé vers vous. (La Bible du Semeur)
14 Dieu dit à Moïse: Je suis celui qui suis. Et il ajouta: C’est ainsi que tu répondras aux enfants d’Israël: Celui qui s’appelle «Je suis» m’a envoyé vers vous. Nouvelle Edition de Genève – NEG1979
14 Y respondió Dios a Moisés: YO SOY EL QUE SOY. Y dijo: Así dirás a los hijos de Israel: YO SOY me envió a vosotros. Reina-Valera 1960
14 Dios dijo a Moisés:— Soy el que soy.Y añadió:— Esto responderás a los israelitas: “Yo soy” me envía a ustedes. La Palabra (Hispanoamérica)
14 Gud svarede Moses: “Jeg er den, jeg er!” Og han sagde: “Således skal du sige til Israeliterne: JEG ER har sendt mig til eder!” (Dette er Biblen på dansk)
14 Dio disse a Mosè: «Io sono colui che sono!». Poi disse: «Dirai agli Israeliti: Io-Sono mi ha mandato a voi». (Conferenza Episcopale Italiana)
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” (ESV)
14 And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Geneva Bible)
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. (KJV)
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘[c]I AM has sent me to you.’” (NASB)
14 And Elohim said unto Moshe, Eh-heh-yeh ashair Ehheh- yeh (I AM WHO I AM); and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the Bnei Yisroel, EHHEH-YEH (I AM) hath sent me unto you. (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’” (NIV)
14 Gott sprach zu Mose: “Ich bin, der ich bin!“ Und er sprach: So sollst du zu den Kindern Israel sagen:“Ich bin“, der hat mich zu euch gesandt. (Schlachter 1951)
14 “Zijn naam is: Ik ben Die Ik ben“, was het antwoord. “Zeg maar tegen hen: ‘Ik Ben’ heeft mij gestuurd! (Het Boek, NL)
14 Respondeu Deus a Moisés: EU SOU O QUE SOU. Disse mais: Assim dirás aos olhos de Israel: EU SOU me enviou a vós. (João Ferreira de Almeida Atualizada)
14 God said to Moshe, “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be],” and added, “Here is what to say to the people of Isra’el: ‘Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.’ (Complete Jewish Bible)
Church fathers believed that Jesus is the I AM and God
THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN MARTYR
CHAPTER LXII – Its Imitation By Demons
And the devils, indeed, having heard this washing published by the prophet, instigated those who enter their temples, and are about to approach them with libations and burnt-offerings, also to sprinkle themselves; and they cause them also to wash themselves entirely, as they depart [from the sacrifice], before they enter into the shrines in which their images are set. And the command, too, given by the priests to those who enter and worship in the temples, that they take off their shoes, the devils, learning what happened to the above-mentioned prophet Moses, have given in imitation of these things. For at that juncture, when Moses was ordered to go down into Egypt and lead out the people of the Israelites who were there, and while he was tending the flocks of his maternal uncle(1) in the land of Arabia, our Christ conversed with him under the appearance of fire from a bush, and said, “Put off thy shoes, and draw near and hear.” And he, when he had put off his shoes and drawn near, heard that he was to go down into Egypt and lead out the people of the Israelites there; and he received mighty power from Christ, who spoke to him in the appearance of fire, and went down and led out the people, having done great and marvelous things; which, if you desire to know, you will learn them accurately from his writings.’
CHAPTER LXIII – How God Appeared To Moses
And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said ‘The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib; but israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand.'(2) And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, ‘No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him.'(3) Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, ‘He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me.'(4) From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people.'(5) And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, ‘And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,’ yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, ‘Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me.'(6) And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, ‘No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him.'(7) The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign,(8) having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, ‘I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers,'(9) this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote.
DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO
CHAPTER XXXIV – Nor Does Psalm LXXII Apply to Solomon, Whose Faults Christians Shudder at.
Further, to persuade you that you have not understood anything of the Scriptures, I will remind you of another psalm, dictated to David by the Holy Spirit, which you say refers to Solomon, who was also your king. But it refers also to our Christ. But you deceive yourselves by the ambiguous forms of speech. For where it is said, `The law of the Lord is perfect, ‘you do not understand it of the law which was to be after Moses, but of the law which was given by Moses, although God declared that He would establish a new law and a new covenant. And where it has been said, `O God, give Thy judgment to the king, ‘since Solomon was king, you say that the Psalm refers to him, although the words of the Psalm expressly proclaim that reference is made to the everlasting King, i.e., to Christ. For Christ is King, and Priest, AND GOD, AND LORD, AND ANGEL, and man, and captain, and stone, and a Son born, and first made subject to suffering, then returning to heaven, and again coming with glory, and He is preached as having the everlasting kingdom: so I prove from all the Scriptures.
Bjorkbloggen 
Question: You say, “…the Greek translation is “ho on”. What is “ho on” the Greek translation of?
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Hey Larry
Septuagint Ex. 3:14 “ego eimi ho on”. Translated into I am who I am.
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BjorkBloggen : “If you would like to delete any of your posts, let me know”
Difficult to do – when the “Reply” button is missing from your last entry – so I am reduced to posting this to an unrelated-to-our-exchanges post hoping you will see it 🙂
…and I didn’t say I wanted to “delete” an entry – I said I wanted to _replace_ it with a corrected one.
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The only way is to copy the text, amend it and repost it – and of course remove the original post. However, this will make the posts out of order. The best option is to just let it be. We all make mistakes.
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Could u post a similar discussion on the language of the pisetah – the aramaic – or perhaps in galilean aramaic. Is ex 3:14 or Isa 43 in aramaic concordant with Jn 8:58 in aramaic?
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Hey Alif
I’m afraid not.
God bless you
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tThen this necessarily means Jesus is the one who makes parents eat their own children. Lev 26.29; Deut 28; Lam 4:10 ; Jer 19.9. Jesus is therefore a child killer.
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The context in some of those verses is what HAS transpired, and others concern prophesies and God explaining for his people what the future will bring for them unless they repent (and which he knows due to his foreknowledge). They risk end up in a situation where God removes his protective hand from them, and where they will find themselves in troublesome situations where they will choose to eat their own children.
Context matters.
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Very well done. I recently watched a man from a distant (via the Internet) reject the Trinity. He is left with an incomplete picture of Jesus. He is left having to solve the issues about Jesus receiving worship, His miracles, His virgin birth, His claims to deity, etc. While I don’t fully understand the Trinity, I accept it because I can’t get around it in the Bible.
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Thanks, Dale
I wonder if people reject the Trinity to a greater extent than a few years ago. I’ve come across more people than ever who spend a lot of time spreading the news that Jesus is not God, and they have no interest to change their mind. It’s of course hard to understand the concept of GOD (and the trinity), but since we know that God can be in any way he likes, why not a trinity?
GBU
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Agreed.
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“I AM” is present active indicative and there _is_ no such tense in Hebrew!
That is why more accurate translations render “ehyeh asher ehyeh” with a future connotation (even though the future “tense” also does not occur in Hebrew but is indicated by context) – thus “I will be” or “I will be what I will be” or “I will prove to be” or “I will become” is a more accurate rendering because “I AM” is impossible in Hebrew.
Trying to force an identification of Jesus from the letters of the Tetragrammaton by appealing to the various pictogram meanings associated with the ancient Hebrew letters (such as “nail” [and “nail” was unknown to begin with to the ancient Hebrews] from “waw” or “vav” – in ancient Hebrew the letter stood for “TENT PEG” or “HOOK” with secondary meanings of “to add”, or “to secure”) is purely the result of a man-made doctrine (The Trinity) trying to extract Jesus from the letters of The Tetragrammaton where Jesus is not.
Next – Trinitarians try to equate the grammatically incorrect rendering of “ehyeh asher ehyeh” as “I AM” with Jesus’ comments such as at John 8:28 where “ego eimi” appears (“I am” in Koine Greek) claiming Jesus was identifying himself with Exodus 3:14 – conveniently overlook that “ego eimi” was used by the (previously) blind man whom Jesus cured at John 9:8, 9 who was not laying any claim with the use of “ego eimi” to Exodus 3:14!!
Obviously “Ego Eimi” is nothing more than a matter of grammatical expression – not a claim to be “God” – as a doctrine of man would have you believe!!
Finally – those seeking to identify Jesus from The Tetragrammaton letters to come up with “Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand” (thus) claiming Jesus is God based on The Tetragrammaton usurp and replace the exclusive worship of the Father as God to whom Jesus always directed worship to be rendered (and those seeking to claim Jesus was “worshipped” as some translations render “proskuneo” – don’t understand it means to “prostrate” “or kiss” – not in worship but in respect and adoration).
“I am ascending to…. __my God__ ” (Jn 20:17) – which is afterwards testified to by his disciples – who didn’t view Jesus as “God” either when they wrote:
“…the __God__ and Father of our Lord Jesus (2 Cor 11:31; Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3)
Submitted with respect in hopes of freeing those who read this from adherence to the man-made doctrine of The Trinity – unknown to the Hebrews and to early Christians up until the reign of Constantine culminating in the Council of Nicea’s proclamations by participants giving every evidence of being influenced by the theology of Greek religion and philosophy comingled with Christianity.
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Hey there
I don’t believe that most Hebrew translators across the world would get that phrase wrong in all languages. It’s only those who are keen on denying the deity of Christ who are desperate in rendering the phrase into something else. I remember my Greek teacher at the university explaining why the translation is in fact correct as is, both when it comes to the phrase in the OT, and the corresponding phrase in the NT. Still, that phrase (which Jesus makes a reference to in comparison with himself) is hardly the only verse which proves the deity of Jesus. As I often say, if even God the Father himself calls his son GOD (Hebr. 1:8) then so can we. The pharisees knew very well why they wanted to stone Jesus, because he, a man, made himself to be God. Do read the other blog articles which I’ve written in this subject.
Blessings
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Being the sole caregiver for a totally disabled spouse and in mid-80s myself doesn’t always allow for a speedy response so forgive the delay in answering your entry.
(for context) “I don’t believe that most Hebrew translators across the world would get that phrase wrong in all languages”
Thank you for your response.
With all due respect BjorkBloggen – “most Hebrew translators” are at odds over how to render rendering Thi\e Tetragrammaton into a language in which it was not written.
For example, from the Israel Bible (https://theisraelbible.com/bible/exodus-3/) “And Hashem said to Moshe, “Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh”. He continued, “Thus shall you say to the Israelites, ‘Ehyeh sent me to you'” (Ex 3:14)
Again, it is _impossible_ to render/translate “Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh” as “I Am” because there is no Present Active Indicative in Hebrew.
Next – Hebrews 1:8
First – the “deity of Christ” as Trinitarians use that description wrongly doctrinalizes that of course Jesus is divine – what else would he be as the First Born of God?
Just as the son of a King is a Prince because of being of the royal line, so Jesus is divine being the son of divinity (Heb 1:4) – but the son of a king is not the king although a prince, nor the son of God is God although His Son.
The corruption of the intent of the writers of both the Hebrew and Greek texts by overlaying them with Trinitarian doctrine can be seen, for example, in how most versions of the NT render John 1:1c as “the Word was God” instead of what the writer of the fourth gospel (all the gospels are anonymous) factually meant when he wrote “καὶ Θεὸς ēn ho Λόγος” which is _properly_ rendered “…and _DIVINE_ was the Word” (again, not as it is usually improperly rendered as “the Word was God”).
With that ( understanding hopefully) back to Hebrews 1:8 – note verse Hebrews 1:9: “You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, __your God__, has set you above your companions”
If Jesus is “God”, the Trinitarian explanation of vs 8 would be nonsense because as “God” – Jesus would not NEED __his God__ to set him above anyone earthly OR heavenly because as “God” he would already BE above all others!
…and again…”But Christ is faithful _as the Son_ over GOD’s__ house” (Heb 3:6) which again speaks to him as the Son but not God
…and again…”The LORD (the Father, YHWH) says to my lord (Jesus): “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” (cf Mt 22:44) – if Jesus is God – he has no need to wait _anyone_ to make his enemies a footstool for his feet
Understanding these verses calls upon Daniel 7:13-14:
“…behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a _son of man_ (cf Jn 3:13) and he came to the __Ancient of Days__ and was presented before __Him__. And to him (the Son of Man*) was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed” (*my insert)
This does not describe “God” who is the “Ancient of Days” before whom “the Son of Man”, Jesus, was presented – who if himself is “God” as Trinitarians claim – he would not need _anything_ to be conferred to or upon him.
…and again…”My God, My God – why have you forsaken me” (Mt 27:46)
…but when it was finished and he had so courageously carried the task his God and Father had assigned him fulfill …it was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead…it was his God (Acts 13:30), the very One he said he was ascending to just as Daniel 7:13-14 described.
Jesus is telling you _I_ am not God, his disciples are telling you _he_ isn’t God, the Hebrew prophets are telling you he isn’t God…listen to them and abandon this false doctrine of man with all due respect BjorkBloggen.
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Again, I can only refer you to the Hebrew (and also Greek) scholars of the world and to, for example Biblehub or Biblegateway, where the phrase in Ex. 3:14 is translated the way it is. It’s a consistent translation not only in English but in all other languages. The Bible translators did not engage in a world wide conspiracy throughout centuries to get the phrase translated in the wrong way.
You said: <<<what else would he be as the First Born of God?
Well, for starters the son doesn't have to be called GOD unless he is! And if Yahwe himself calls the son GOD then so can we.
You said: <<Just as the son of a King is a Prince because of being of the royal line, so Jesus is divine being the son of divinity (Heb 1:4) – but the son of a king is not the king although a prince, nor the son of God is God although His Son.
Jesus is not only divine, but GOD and KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS just like the Father. Rev. 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. Rev. 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”
You wrote <<If Jesus is "God", the Trinitarian explanation of vs 8 would be nonsense because as "God" – Jesus would not NEED __his God_ —
If? The BIBLE is the source and the verse clearly names the son GOD. We just have to accept it. It's not about what Jesus needs but what he is called and only the Creator could possibly be called GOD and Lord of Lords. Jesus is part of the Godhead so this makes perfect sense.
Jesus can be son and God at the same time. A pile of sand can be separated into three piles, and the son of God can be placed next to God the Father on the throne.
When Jesus was a man on earth he communicated with God (Father in heaven) as all others. Jesus addressing the Father as "my God" therefore makes perfect sense. God the Father didn't cease to be God when Jesus was in human flesh.
You said: <<it was not Jesus who raised himself from the dead..
John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I LAY IT DOWN OF MY OWN ACCORD"
Jesus could have attributed the whole thing to only God the Father but he involves his own self in the decision and his free will.
You said: <<Jesus is telling you _I_ am not God, his disciples are telling you _he_ isn't God, the Hebrew prophets are telling you he isn't God.
Jesus say he is God, his Father says he is God, his disciples says he is God, the Bible translators across the world say he is God, the old church fathers say he is God, the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because of his claim to be God.
Please read the other blog articles which I've written in this subject.
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Copied:
Genesis 1:1 (God is the Creator) – John 1:3-10
(Jesus is the Creator)
Genesis 17:1 (The Almighty is God) – Rev. 1:8
(Jesus is the Almighty)
Exodus 3:14 (The "I am" is God) – John 8:58
(Jesus is the "I am")
Deut. 10:17(The Lord of Lords is God) – Rev. 19:16
(Jesus is Lord of Lords)
Psalms 18:31 (The Rock is God) – I Corinthians
10:4 (Jesus is the Rock)
Psalms 146:10 (God shall reign forever)- Luke 1:33
(Jesus will reign forever)
Isaiah 40:11 (The Shepherd is God) – John 10:16
(Jesus is the Shepherd)
Isaiah 41:14 (The Redeemer is God) – Luke 1:68
(Jesus is the Redeemer)
Isaiah 43:10 (God said, “I am he”) – John 8:24
(Jesus said, “I am he”)
Isaiah 43:10,11 (God is the Saviour) – Luke 2:11
(Jesus is the Saviour)
Isaiah 43:15 (The Holy One is God) – Acts 3:14
(Jesus is the Holy One)
Isaiah 43:15(God is King of Israel) – Matt.
27:37(Jesus is King of Israel)
Isaiah 45:21 (The One Saviour is God) – Acts 4:12
(Jesus is the One Saviour)
Isaiah 43:10,11(God is the only Saviour)- Titus
1:4(Jesus is the only Saviour)
Isa, 44:6(The first and last is God) – Rev. 1:8,
22:13(Jesus is first and last)
Isa. 44:6 (The King of Israel is God) – John 1:49
(Jesus is King of Israel)
Isa. 45:23(Every knee must bow-God) – Phil.
2:10-11(Every knee must bow-Jesus)
Jeremiah 31:32 (God, the One Husband) – II Cor.
11:2 (Jesus-The One Husband)
Zechariah 12:10 (They pierced me – God)- John
19:34 (They pierced Jesus)
Zechariah 14:4-5 (God is coming) – Matthew 25:31
(Jesus is coming)
Malachi 1:6 (The One Master is God) – Matthew
23:8 (Jesus is the One Master)
Malachi 2:10 (God is the Father) – John
14:5-9,Isaiah 9:6, (Jesus is the Father)…..
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Thank you for your response – however – it is clear, with all due respect intended, that you have too much invested in belief in the man-made Doctrine of the Trinity to distinguish where Trinitarian “proof texts” have been manipulated into reflecting that doctrine rather than understanding that Jesus, while divine, is not God from his own words and those of his disciples as already placed in evidence to you.
If you pay attention to the description of the afore quoted Daniel 7:13-14 you will see that many of your citations are explained by the FACT that every authority and title is conferred upon Jesus by his God and Father upon re-entering the presence of The Ancient of Days (YHWH).
Jesus did not take these powers and authorities to himself by his own hand – it was conferred upon him and to him by his God and Father:
John 3:35 “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand”
Philippians 2:9 “_God_ highly exalted him, and _bestowed on him_ the name which is above every name
Matthew 28:18 ““All authority has been _given to me_ in heaven and on earth
Ephesians 1:19-21 “That power is the same as the mighty strength He exerted when __He__ raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come”
Jesus did not self-resurrect, he did not appoint himself “far above all rule, authority, power, and dominion” – no – this was done by his God and Father, all of which testifies to the false doctrine of The Trinity which maintains that Jesus is co-equal with the Father – which he is not (cf Jn 14:28)
1 Peter 3:21 (Jesus*) “Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him (* my insert)
So all the citations you list of Jesus’ titles, powers, descriptions, etc are the result of his God and Father conferring all things upon him just as the previous examples demonstrate – not by Jesus’ self-actions to acquire those things for himself. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords because his God and Father decreed that is what and who he is. He is the First and the Last because no other being is beside his God and Father from the beginning (cf Jn 6:62) – and he is the “Word of God” because he speaks not his own thoughts but what his God and Father told him to say ““My teaching is not my own. It comes _from the one who sent me_” (Jn 7:16) and “I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me __commanded me__ to say all that I have spoken” (Jn 12:49)
Jesus would not and COULD not be “COMMANDED” to do or say _anything_ if he were “God” !!
I wish you well BjorkBloggen and will continue to hope you will in time see the Doctrine of The Trinity for what it is and has been since its inception, a doctrine of man, not God – but my spousal care-giver duties override my ability to continue these exchanges.
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Jesus had numerous opportunities to tell people to not worship him, and he could easily have told Thomas and the rest of us to refrain from calling him God. Still, not once did he do that. The pharisees wanted to stone him for the fact that he, a man, made himself to be God. It couldn’t be more clear than that.
The Bible explains that Jesus, of his own choice offered up his own life, but we can also read that Yahwe was the one making this choice. So either Jesus takes too much credit on himself, or the Bible is lying OR the trinity is true. I believe the latter.
Before Jesus was a man on earth there was still the Godhead in which Jesus was always involved (Jesus is told to be the creator of all things, despite that no one was with Yahve when the creation occurred). This is why it makes perfect sense to read that the decision and the authority derived from Yahwe who is the Godhead. God can do all things, including letting part of the Godhead be a man on earth. Still, Jesus existed before becoming a man on earth and he was also together with the Israelites during the Exodus. Do read my article about the Angel of God who is not a created being.
The Bible explains that there is only ONE King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and yet Jesus is all that! This problem is not solved merely by suggesting that God the Father gives Jesus this authority because, again, there should only be ONE King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Not two! If we are supposed to bow down and worship only GOD alone, and God suggests that we should do the same to the son, then we can only conclude that Jesus is God as well. There is only one God. Not two gods that we should bow down and worship.
Remember how Jesus by his own choice decided, for a moment to be placed lower than the angels despite his deity:
Phil. 2:6 Who, being in VERY NATURE of GOD,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Heb. 2:7 You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor
So are we to believe that the hierarchy consists of God on top, under him the angels and under them the son? Yes, for a short moment when Jesus walked on earth. This hierarchy did not look that way before or after this period.
Thanks for your input, and I let this be the last post. Many blessings to you and please pray about this matter and study the subject not only from anti-trinitarian sources.
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BjorkBloggen: “…study the subject (Trinitarianism – my insert for context) not only from anti-trinitarian sources”
The only “anti-trinitarian sources” I have read is _the history_ of the development of this doctrine – and I came away after years of intensive historical research of the founding of this doctrine and the study of Koine Greek in relation to what scripture actually says vs what often Trinitarian manipulation of scripture SAYS it says (Jn 1:1c in most bibles being a classic example) – the understanding that the founding of this doctrine not only occurred HUNDREDS OF YEARS after the death of Jesus, his disciples, and the early Christians they taught who had no such beliefs and were no longer to alive to refute it but that this doctrine was formed by men whose thinking was far more influenced by Mt Olympus than Mt Sinai or the Mt of Olives and far more influenced by the Schools of Alexandria, Plato and Antioch than by the teaching of Jesus and his disciples.
“…let this be the last post”
I had in fact planned no further responses but decided to give one last look in hopes something, anything, might have registered with you to consider thinking differently about Jesus and The Trinity.
That did not prove to be the case and to walk away from so many Trinitarian-fostered doctrinal abuses of scripture, both the Hebrew and Greek testament to which you appeal – I have to finish my participation in these exchanges with the following.
…and BTW – I grew up Baptist and sang without understanding or knowledge the doxology which included “God in three persons, blessed Trinity” – so I know and understand the Doctrine of the Trinity!!
The development of this doctrine basically culminated at Nicea in 325 CE, called by the Emperor Constantine who presided over this first ecumenical council and according to some accounts, actively participated in the debates between Bishops of the church in spite of being a life long pagan devotee of Sol Invictus, The Sun (not the S_o_n) and was only baptized on his death bed in 337 CE !!
BjorkBloggen: “…no one was with Yahve when the creation occurred”
The Messianic portrayal at Proverbs 8:24-31 (see https://www.biblestudytools.com/proverbs/passage/?q=proverbs+8:22-31) disagrees. To quote:
“I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, __I WAS GIVEN BIRTH__, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, __I WAS GIVEN BIRTH,__ before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. __I was there__ when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then __I was constantly AT HIS SIDE__ [Hebrew: וָֽאֶהְיֶ֣ה אָ֫מ֥וֹן אֶצְל֗וֹ אֶצְל֗וֹ = “as a master craftsman” {see https://biblehub.com/interlinear/proverbs/8-30.htm} – my insert]. I was filled with delight day after day, __rejoicing always in his presence__, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. ”
Jesus spoke more than once about from where he came and to where he was returning. (Jn 3:14; 6:32)
BjorkBloggen: “He (Jesus, my insert) could easily have told Thomas and the rest of us to refrain from calling him God”.
Thomas was not calling Jesus “God” – and Jesus knew it – so there was nothing for him to “correct” Thomas about his comment (which should be all the notice “the rest of (you)” should take note of an abandon this false doctrine. Jesus knew Thomas was acknowledging him as his Lord AND SECONDLY HIS FATHER AS GOD who brought him up from the dead!! (Acts 13:30)
Secondly – HOW DO WE KNOW THAT ??
Because Jesus had sent word to his followers that he was going _TO_ the God of his disciples (which included) Thomas stating “…go to __my brothers__ (of which Thomas was one) and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and __YOUR__ GOD.’” (Jn 20:17)
Can’t be made any more plain than that – that the God of Thomas and the God of Jesus followers was not Jesus it was the God of Jesus.
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear” (Mt 11:15)
BjorkBloggen: “The Bible explains that there is only ONE King of Kings and Lord of Lords”
The bible does not say there is only _one_ “King of Kings, Lord of Lords”??
Not that it represents them in the same context as Jesus and the authority he was given by his God and Father – but as a point of accuracy – even pagan rulers such as Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:12 ) and Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 2:37) bear the title of “King of Kings”.
Also – is not God the Father the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? If then He titles His Son as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, God the Father’s dominion is still over all including His Son and not subject to His Son being a King over earthly kings and “Lord” of all his earthly subjects.
You are not still ignoring that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus _conferred_ upon him (he did not take them on to himself) titles and dominion and authority (Mt 28:18) which would make Jesus King of all earthly Kings and Lord of all as well. That does not equate Jesus as _being_ “God” – it is the result of having all power, authority, dominion, conferred upon him _BY_ his God just as he claimed who still remains above all – including His Son !!
Surely you wouldn’t try to contend that The Father was put under Jesus authority based on the description of Jesus’ consummate authority extending also into heaven would you ? Hopefully your Trinitarianism doesn’t extend _that_ far!!
As it is also written, “The LORD (יְהוָ֨ה Yahweh) said to my Lord (לַֽאדֹנִ֗י ladoni = literally “to my master”) sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet” (Ps 110:1) upon his return to his father’s side. This telsl you, if you are listening, that Jesus had already been granted all authority _BEFORE_ he left the earth just as he stated to his disciples at Mt 28:18.
To keep this from becoming of mind-numbing length, just a few observations on your ending scriptural citations:
Phil. 2:6 – of course Jesus is the reflection of his God – his lineage is divinity as his God’s firstborn. That does make him God and the remainder of the verse demonstrates Jesus had no thought of usurping (Gr ἁρπαγμὸν “grasped at”) his God and Father’s power because “The Father __is greater__ than I am” (Jn 14:28)
Phil 2:8 – again Trinitarian misrepresentation of the verse is on full display here because he humbled himself. Jesus pointed out “I have not come of Myself, but He who sent me is true…I have not come of myself, but He who sent me is true…I am from Him, and __He sent Me__” (Phil 2:28, 29)
“And He who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” (Jn 8:29) – and humbling himself is exactly that and nothing more unlike what Trinitarians like to claim about his actions.
Finally you quote Heb. 2:7 “You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor”
But – you chose a rendering of that verse WHICH IS INCORECT !!
The Greek at Heb 2:7 is not “them” but “αὐτόν” which is Accusative Masculine 3rd person _SINGULAR_ which means it should be translated as _”HE”_ not “them” !!
…a technical point, yes, but important in relation to Jesus as being the First Born of his God and Father because of wrongly translating the verse as if it were angels (“them”) who were “crowned with glory and honor” – but when correctly translated refers to Jesus as being crowned with honor and glory – just as portrayed in the Messianic vision of Daniel (7:13, 14, cf Rev 1:13-18)
So I come to the end of trying to present to you in every way that can be verified both from history as well as from Jesus and his disciples – that exclusive worship belongs only to the Father – who can now only be accessed through His Son (Jn 14:6).
If Jesus is God and co-equal with the Father as Trinitarians claim – there would be no need for him to be functioning as the a conduit, a mediator, between himself as God and his Father as God.
This truly is my last response. Will it touch something and inspire you to do more thorough research on the development of the Doctrine of The Trinity and the influence of Platonic and other Greek pagan philosophy that was not taught by Jesus nor his disciples and was unknown for hundreds of years to everyday Christians up until the time of Constantine?
Time will tell.
Peace
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Hello
Ok, final post. (If you would like to delete any of your posts, let me know.)
The statement that the trinity doctrine occurred hundreds of years after the death of Jesus is completely false. Not only is the deity of Jesus (Jesus being GOD) replete in the Bible, but we can see that the early church fathers ALSO taught that Jesus was/is God.
Here are examples of quotes from the old church fathers about Jesus being God, and there is no question about it.
”…He preexisted as the Son of the Creator of things, BEING GOD, and that He was born a man by the Virgin.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, 48)
”Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Himself, THE GOD JESUS CHRIST, build you up in the faith…” (The Epistle of Polycarp to the Church at Philippi, 12)
”In order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and GOD, and Savior, and King…” (Irenaeus Against Heresies, 1.10.1)
”Continue inseparable from JESUS CHRIST OUR GOD.” (Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)
”For even OUR GOD; JESUS CHRIST, know that He is in the Father”. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans 1:13)
Brethren, WE OUGHT SO TO THINK OF JESUS CHRIST AS OF GOD : as of the judge of the living and the dead”. (2nd Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians 1:1)
”For Christ is King, and Priest, and GOD and Lord…” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, 34)
You can find even more quotes here : https://bjorkbloggen.com/2013/12/21/constantine-did-not-start-the-trinity-doctrine-at-the-council-of-nicaea/
In the same post you can also see that the trinity was the common Christian belief long before Nicea. The “Nicea argument” has been a common anti-trinitarian belief, but history proves them wrong.
<< <<“I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, __I WAS GIVEN BIRTH__,
Not only is it risky to start a doctrine based on poetry (Biblical poetry is still very useful since it mirrors the reality by using poetic expressions – which must not be misinterpreted) but there is nothing in these Proverbs which denies the deity of Jesus (Jesus being God). Even if we can read about Jesus being the son, or even being born (Mary gave birth to him and/or he derived from a divine seed), there are also other verses which prove the preexistence of Jesus! Again, we can read that no one was with Yahve when he created the heavens and the earth, and yet we read that Jesus was with him! Again, the only way to solve all those verses (about Jesus being the creator of everything) is to accept the Biblical teaching of the deity of Jesus.
<<Jesus spoke more than once about from where he came and to where he was returning. (Jn 3:14; 6:32)
Yes Jesus can in a way be described as having a beginning as a man on earth and "the firstborn", but we can also read that absolutely NOTHING was before him. Jesus was BEFORE ALL THINGS.
Col. 1: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (4416) of every creature:16 For BY HIM were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY HIM, and for him:17 And he is BEFORE all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (4416) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
<< Jesus knew Thomas was acknowledging him as his Lord AND SECONDLY HIS FATHER AS GOD —
*
This sounds like a desperate attempt to deny the deity of Jesus despite the clear evidence. Thomas clearl
John 20: 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, MY LORD AND MY GOD God.29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Again, Thomas addressed Jesus and called him both LORD and GOD. Instead of fooling him and all innocent Bible readers, he could easily have explained that he isn't God at all but naturally he didn't do that. Instead Jesus blessed the whole situation. Apart from constantly letting himself being worshiped and constantly taking the attributes of God to himself.
<<< to my God and __YOUR__ GOD.’” (Jn 20:17)
Yes it would be strange if Jesus would have said "To my God/Father who is NOT your God …"
<<Not that it represents them in the same context as Jesus and the authority he was given by his God and Father – but as a point of accuracy – even pagan rulers such as Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:12 ) and Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 2:37) bear the title of “King of Kings”.
Yes it's true that we can read about both gods and lords in the Bible, and even pagan Lord of Lords, but this doesn't change the fact that the Bible also claims that there is only one true Lord of Lords when speaking about the Creator God (not about pagan kings):
If there is only one single Lord of Lords (when speaking about God) who then can Jesus be Lord of Lords as well? Answer: due to the trinity
Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward
Ps. 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Phil. 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Tim. 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords
Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rev. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.—15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
<<Also – is not God the Father the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
Yes!
<< If then He titles His Son as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, God the Father’s dominion is still over all including His Son and not subject to His Son being a King over earthly kings and “Lord” of all his earthly subjects.
Again, if both Yahve and Jesus are King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Alpha and Omega, The Creator of ALL THINGS, the only one to worship, etc, then the Bible is either making false statements for constantly suggesting that Yahve ALONE is all of that, OR Jesus Christ is indeed part of the Godhead and GOD. Just like the Bible claims. There is no other way to solve this problem which exists only among the antitrinitarians. Those who believe the Biblical teaching of the deity of Jesus do not have this problem.
<<You are not still ignoring that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus _conferred_ upon him (he did not take them on to himself) titles and dominion and authority (Mt 28:18) which would make Jesus King of all earthly Kings and Lord of all as well. That does not equate Jesus as _being_ “God” – it is the result of having all power, authority, dominion, conferred upon him _BY_ his God just as he claimed who still remains above all – including His Son !!
Again, it's not a contradiction that the Father gave authority and titles to the son at the same time as the son being God. Even though the Bible claims that Jesus was BEFORE ALL THINGS (both visible and invisible), we can still read about Jesus being the firstborn, praying to his God, the Father, etc, because of the arrangement within the Godhead. God the Father doesn't cease to exist in the Godhead just because the Godhead decided to let a divine son be born on earth. I'm afraid you are limiting God. You can't ignore all the statements which say that Jesus himself chose to lay down his life. Again, the only way to COMBINE the Biblical statements of one single God (the only true Lord of Lords) and Jesus Christ being the Creator of all things is to accept the Biblical teaching of the trinity. The apostles did and the old church fathers, and so can we.
<<Surely you wouldn’t try to contend that The Father was put under Jesus authority based on the description of Jesus’ consummate authority extending also into heaven would you ?
Trinitarians don't believe that Jesus was above the Father. They believe the Biblical teaching that Jesus was with Yahve from the beginning. The Bible clearly states that Yahve doesn't share his glory with anyone. Not with anyone! Yet, he gladly shares it with Jesus. Either Yahve is replete with contradictions, or the trinity is true.
Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein—8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power
Hebr. 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands
<<As it is also written, “The LORD (יְהוָ֨ה Yahweh) said to my Lord (לַֽאדֹנִ֗י ladoni = literally “to my master”) sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet” (Ps 110:1) upon his return to his father’s side. This telsl you, if you are listening, that Jesus had already been granted all authority _BEFORE_ he left the earth just as he stated to his disciples at Mt 28:18.
Psalms are psalms and we should not start new doctrines based on poetry. Jesus can be said to be glorified when he completed his mission on earth and returned to his Father/the Godhead from where he came. You are constantly ignoring all the statements about Jesus being with his Father from the BEGINNING. Not as a man of flesh, but certainly as part of the Godhead
John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
<<Phil. 2:6 – of course Jesus is the reflection of his God – his lineage is divinity as his God’s firstborn. That does make him God and the remainder of the verse demonstrates Jesus had no thought of usurping (Gr ἁρπαγμὸν “grasped at”) his God and Father’s power because “The Father __is greater__ than I am” (Jn 14:28)
Yes, that does make him God since it SAYS so. He was being in the form of God! Still, for a little time he came to this earth for a mission and then he stepped down in authority and was even LOWER than the ANGELS. God the Father calls the son GOD in Hebr. 1:8. God isn't mistaking himself and he isn't God of confusion. If Jesus is called GOD (despite that God doesn't share his glory with anyone) this means he is God.
<<Phil 2:8 – again Trinitarian misrepresentation of the verse is on full display here
I'm not misrepresenting anything but I quote the verse.
<<because he humbled himself. Jesus pointed out “I have not come of Myself, but He who sent me is true…I have not come of myself, but He who sent me is true…I am from Him, and __He sent Me__” (Phil 2:28, 29)
Yes, because of the other person in the Godhead which is the Father. The trinity consists of the Father, son and the holy Spirit. All parts are GOD. Just because one persons sends another person on a mission, it doesn't take away the fact that all persons can be called GOD since they share the same Godhead and Jesus is stated to have always been with his Father from the beginning. As the Creator of ALL THINGS: If Jesus is stated to be before all things, we can understand this to mean all things. Jesus says that he has not come of himself, but he ALSO says that he lays down his own life. The only way to combine the two is to accept the trinity.
<<“And He who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” (Jn 8:29) – and humbling himself is exactly that and nothing more unlike what Trinitarians like to claim about his actions.
Humbling himself in which way? By stepping down in authority! By being placed LOWER than the angels eventhough he is the Creator of all things, including angels.
<<The Greek at Heb 2:7 is not “them” but “αὐτόν” which is Accusative Masculine 3rd person _SINGULAR_ which means it should be translated as _”HE”_ not “them” !!
Are you again suggesting that the Bible translators across the world, in all languages, are wrong again? The same word is translated as "him" in most other places, but it seems like it's only a problem here because it makes Jesus GOD?
αὐτός autós, ow-tos'; from the particle αὖ aû (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative G1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:—her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, – by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which.
… Jesus as being the First Born of his God and Father
<<Do read my article about the expression of the first born. The Bible gives examples of individuals labelled "the first born" as in position and not as being the physically first born of a woman.
<<If Jesus is God and co-equal with the Father as Trinitarians claim – there would be no need for him to be functioning as the a conduit, a mediator, between himself as God and his Father as God.
This shows your misunderstanding of God. God is of course complex since he is GOD, but we can see his plan in the Bible, by letting the son temporarily be born on earth to become a man just like us. Before he was a man on earth he was in the appearance of the Angel of the Lord (not a created being) and he of course is described as being the creator of all things despite that we can read that NO ONE was with Yahve when he (Yahve) created the heavens and the earth. God's plan was perfect in that the son took the sins of the world on him and died as a sin offering for all of us! No one else could have made this divine offer by someone who was totally free of sin himself!
<< the influence of Platonic and other Greek pagan philosophy
It's a common claim by antitrinitarians to suggest that trinitarians have been inspired by pagan philosophy but no trinitarian that I know of have any knowledge of such pagan philosophy. Instead the belief in the trinity comes from THE BIBLE.
<< that was not taught by Jesus nor his disciples and was unknown for hundreds of years to everyday Christians up until the time of Constantine?
The Constantine argument is also common among antitrinitarians, and show that they have been one sided in their studies.
You are clearly a wise person and express yourself well, and that's why it's a shame that you have chosen to invest time and energy on complete falsehood. The Bible shows how the Pharisees refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah and the one that the old testament spoke about. Instead of spending time denying that Jesus has always been with his Father, just like the Bible says, you are sadly working against the light.
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)
This makes it clear, that if someone else takes the expression of The first and the last, the alpha and omega" on himself, he is either GOD or an impostor.
Rev. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Thanks for your time. Again, do take some time to read my article about this subject since it takes time for me to copy and paste in separate posts.
Blessings
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With your permission and indulgence (even though you don’t agree with what I write because I take a stance on The Trinity differently than you do with all due respect) I would like to re-post my last response reporting it is “Pending Moderation”. There were several corrections that needed to be made that I missed before posting it the first time so I would appreciate being able to re-post it in corrected form.
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(and I wish you had an EDIT feature so I could clean up the typos I only seem to see after posting 😦
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