And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30)
Based on the Greek text, the latter part of the above sentence can be translated “by whom you were sealed FOR the day of redemption”. The preposition “for” is a translation from the Greek word εἰς (eis, Strong’s 1519) and apart from “for” it can mean into, in, among and till. The text does not say “sealed and saved unconditionally all the way UNTIL the day of redemption no matter the conduct”. “Were sealed” in the verse, is a translation from ἐσφραγίσθητε (esphragisthēte, Strong’s 4972).
There is nothing that suggests that a seal can absolutely not be tampered with. When someone places a seal on something – like the one in the picture above to the left – he doesn’t do this with the idea that no one can remove the seal, but rather to show a unique mark and/or ownership of something. The aim might very well be to see the seal untouched until there is a proper time to remove it, but there is no guarantee that it will remain as it is until that day.
The Greek word sphragizó can mean seal, or set a seal upon, or mark with a seal. We are indeed uniquely “marked” when we as christians have the Holy Spirit in our lives, and we are separate and different from those without this mark. The word is from sphragís (a seal) – to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal). “Sealing” in the ancient world served as a “legal signature”, and it was sometimes done by the use of religious tattoos – again signifying “belonging to”. The same word is used for the stone which was blocking the grave of Jesus – and which was later REMOVED.
2 Cor. 122Who hath also SEALED us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Matt. 27:66So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, SEALING the stone, and setting a watch.
Rev. 10:4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
The book of Ephesians talks about a corporate election and about the promised future for the body of Christ. The CHURCH or the BODY OF CHRIST was predestined, before the creation of the world, to enter the Kingdom of God and inherit the promises. The question is if we as individuals choose to belong or not.
Eph. 1:22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the CHURCH, 23Which is his BODY, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Eph. 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;— 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph. 1:13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
or:
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation – having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30).
Read the many warnings in the same chapter of Ephesians 4. The warnings are addressed to believers. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is conditional since we can “grieve” and eventually “insult” the Spirit of Grace which means total apostasy.
Hebr. 10 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Only believers can possess the Holy Spirit and no one can enter the Kingdom of God without the Spirit. He is therefore the guarantee of an inheritance for believers and not unbelievers. Through union with Christ we are “predestined” to adoption and an inheritance as children of God, being “joint heirs” with Christ (Eph. 1:5, 10-11, cf. Rom. 8:17; Gal. 3:29; 4:7). This is what is in view when Paul speaks of being sealed “for the day of redemption”, but we must not assume that this sealing is unbreakable which the text does not claim.
What is a guarantee? Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can often read in the “fine print“. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example might be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees that you will get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the destination. The BUS will arrive at the destination as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.
1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Psalm 5:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me
A circumcision was also a “seal” for those under the old covenant.
Rom. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also
This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.
Rom. 2:25For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law:but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant, but if we would totally abandon the faith and/or live in disobedience with no plan to repent, then the Holy Spirit might no longer have a reason to remain and then we are no longer sealed. Also circumcised (sealed) Jews were broken off through unbelief as Rom. 11 tells us.
Acts. 5:32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
Rom. 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
God speaks of the Israelites who “grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.
Isaiah 6310But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. — 14As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
In the NT the “rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.
Hebr. 3:6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebr. 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebr. 6: 11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Jude 1:5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not
The word “called” below in Gal. 1:6 is the same word as in Rom. 8:30 – καλέω (kaleó Strong’s 2564). Paul marvels at the fact that some Galatians despite being called are deserting Christ and turning to another gospel. Paul noticed that these Galatians were true believers who were apostatizing from the faith. Despite being chosen, called elect they risked falling away. If kaleo refers to the elect in Rom 8:30 then it must also refer to the elect in Gal 1:6.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that CALLED you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
If you’re trapped in Calvinism, do read about the contradictions within TULIP here.
Church Fathers
The Shepherd of Hermes 6(72):3 I say unto him, “Sir, now then show me concerning those that have given up their rods, what manner of man each of them is, and their abode, that when they hear this, they that believed and have received the seal and have broken it and did not keep it sound may fully understand what they are doing, and repent, receiving from thee a seal, and may glorify the Lord, that He had compassion upon them and sent thee to renew their spirits.”
Clement 7:6 For as concerning them that have not kept the seal, He saith,`Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be for a spectacle unto all flesh’.
Clement 8:6 So then He meaneth this, Keep the flesh pure and the seal unstained, to the end that we may receive life.
Bjorkbloggen 
Thank you for spreading love and light I grew up in churches my whole childhood and early adulthood and was never taught true salvation until I studied with women in my international nondenominational bible based church (Sfbicc.org) and I have unfortunately fallen away in 2021 due to tempted and turning to a past toxic ex boyfriend and feel so empty and lost without God. and this study really opened my eyes and helped me develop that healthy fear of God again. Thank you. Working on getting restored God bless you !
LikeLike
God bless you and I pray you will feel even closer to Jesus through reading his Word. Faith comes from hearing the word of God 🙂
LikeLike
I feel like you covered all the reasons, yet missed the relevance of some things. Such as the seal being God’s mark of ownership. If you own something, it belongs to you. If something was sealed, it was not to be opened until the right time, yet it still has the seal to cover the letter that’s not to be opened until given to another. But Christ doesn’t give his ownership over to another, because the seal is to keep Satan out. That’s why revelation says that there are only two seals. Christ’s seal, and those who take the mark of the beast. Giving over ownership to one or the other. Anyone who hasn’t been sealed, hasn’t given over ownership of their own accord, in full. But all who have, are sealed. Those who grieve his spirit have not fully given over ownership. That’s why they’ve gone back on their decision.
LikeLike
Hey coralceleste!
You’re right that something that is sealed – like an old fashioned letter – remains sealed until opened by someone. The same word is used for the stone that blocked the grave of Jesus, and that too could be removed – and even blocked again. The word signifies being “marked”, and we are certainly special as the children of God. Without this mark (born again, baptized with the Spirit …) we couldn’t be saved. Still, the Bible doesn’t say that no one is able to walk away from all the promises that are tied to the children of God. We are promised, however, that IF we walk in the Spirit we will not give in to sin (Gal. 5:16) which means we are on the right path. Still, this is optional and anyone can choose to walk away – with consequences. We must endure to the end to be saved and not try convince ourselves that we have a fire insurance if we are once in the past marked.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Till din osparade falska lärare och Satans barn som skrev den här skräpiga bloggen, du är en fiende av Kristus och en hatare av Gud och är med säkerhet förlorad och bunden till Hellfire. Tro på Herren Jesus Kristus och du ska bli frälst.
Lägg märke till ditt huvudargument: Du måste vrida Skriften som alla andra falska kristna och du måste springa till “grekiska” argument. Faktum är: Det perfekta som ges av Guds inspirationsord är den mottagna texten som befinner sig i den auktoriserade King James-bibeln från 1611. Den fasta engelska är vad Gud har valt att slutföra sina ord i. Versen säger förseglad till förlossningens dag. Det finns ingen vers i hela Bibeln som uttryckligen säger att Guds andes försegling på den återfödda kristna kan brytas. Ditt falska argument kollapsar eftersom det finns flera grekiska ord som du inte smutsar någon bra satanisk lögnare. Du används av Djävulen för att attackera försäkran om evigt liv. Jesus lovade alla som TROR PÅ HAN att ha ALLTIDLIV. Om det är evigt kan det ALDRIG TAPPAS. Du måste omvända dig och tro det sanna evangeliet enligt 1 Korintierbrevet 15: 3-4 så att du inte brinner i Hellfire för alltid.
LikeLike
Hoppsan!
Det var många hatiska kommentarer på en gång. Långt ifrån t. ex beteendet från Jesus som konverserade på ett älskvärt sätt även då han samtalade med diverse syndare.
Om du stöter på någon som är helt fel ute så är annars ett bra tips att skippa angrepp och förklara vad som är fel.
Grekiska är inte nödvändigt för att läsa Bibeln men ibland är det intressant att göra lite djupdyk i originalspråket om man fastnar i något begrepp. Det är ingen synd att gå till originalspråket.
Om nu KJV är den enda sanna versionen, varför säger Bibeln inte det på något ställe? Varför har just de engelsktalande fått Ordet och inga andra? Folk runt jorden måste alltså kunna engelska för att förstå Bibeln? Hur klarade man sig innan år 1611?
Vad gäller förseglingen så tog jag med verser som visar att en försegling inte är något permanent lås och att även förseglade brev kan öppnas.
Eftersom du tror på “en gång frälst alltid frälst” så antar jag att du har råd att synda eftersom du aldrig kan gå förlorad. Det låter onekligen som något Satan gillar att vi lär ut i våra kyrkor. Bibeln säger nämligen att synd separerar oss från Gud.
En evig gåva är evig även om den kastas bort.
Guds välsignelse och jag ber att solen ska lysa över dig idag
LikeLike
Pingback: Support for sin in a Christian chat room | Bjorkbloggen
wow, you are a slippery one. Why do you keep going to a parable to wrest in attempt to prove your heretical belief that you, as a Christian(?), can be unseald when I gave you the address of two scriptures that very plainly say you cannot. We have however found the problem. You either do not believe the scriptures or you are just to lazy to look them up. So, I will write them out for you and request that you address them accordingly (that would mean for you to give the scripture(s) that you believe would prove differently) instead of lying by saying I never gave them to you like you did in your last response. Here, let me spoon feed you.. Eph.4:30 plainly states “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are (present tense) sealed unto the day of redemption.” cf. Eph.1:13&14 “…in whom also after that you believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest (down payment) of our inheritance (eternal life) until the redemption (2nd advent) of the purchased possession (the saint)…” Both of these scripture plainly state that you are sealed until the day that Christ returns. You are misapplying a parable (vine and branches) that should be correctly applied to the Jews under the law and then again during the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. You would know that if you knew the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. I don’t know which cult taught you these “damnable heresies” (2ndPeter 2:1-3 which see) lady, but if you would study your Bible you would know what it says and you would realize the Bible does not contradict itself. Anytime you have to go to obscure passages (like a parable or an illustration) to try and prove anything different than what is very plainly written in other passages then you are breaking the very first rule of interpretation and you will always end in “err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God” (Matt.22:29). Dr.Stanton
LikeLike
Hello Stanton
<< Why do you keep going to a parable—
Parables serve a purpose, but there are also non-parables which show that we continue to risk our salvation if we sin. Remember that Satan lied when he claimed the opposite ("surely you shall not die …")
<< to wrest in attempt to prove your heretical belief that you, as a Christian(?), can be unseald—-
Why would it matter if Christians rely on heresy if they can't lose their salvation?
<< when I gave you the address of two scriptures that very plainly say you cannot.
You have showed no such thing.
<< whereby ye are (present tense) sealed unto the day of redemption."
I've addressed this verse in the very same blog article under which you are writing.
<<You are misapplying a parable (vine and branches) that should be correctly applied to the Jews under the law —-
Why would the New Testament be out of date as soon as it was written? Why would Jews and gentiles continue to live by different rules? Which other verses can we brush away with the claim that they don't apply to us but only the Jews? It says that a branch can be cut off the vine (Jesus) due to lack of fruit. We can believe it or not.
GBU
LikeLike
Your notion that the seal of the Holy Spirit cannot be broken rests upon the premise that all of the believer’s sins – past, present and future – were dealt with at the cross where the propitiation of Jesus’ blood was applied at the moment of regeneration/sealing of the Spirit thus automatically atoning for all of our sins. Rom 3:25 contradicts your belief:
“whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;”
This verse specifically notes that the propitiation of His blood only applies to past sins at the moment of conversion. There is no mention of present or future sins yet to be committed. Thus, if there are present sins and future sins in the believer’s life that have not or will not be repented of, forgiveness is not assured of if the believer chooses not to repent and forsake sin. No forgiveness = no salvation = no permanent seal of the Holy Spirit.
Furthermore, if all the believer’s sins – past, present and future were judged at the cross – why does Jesus judge and rebuke the 7 Churches in Revelation for their works and specifically their lack of works? Does that not indicate that God judges each believer’s life by his/her works – whether good or bad? I don’t see Jesus mentioning that since you all were sealed by the Holy Spirit, you all get a free pass. Instead Scripture teaches that God will judge all men by their works – not by whether they were sealed by the Spirit.
It is commonly taught that only the unsaved dead are resurrected at the great white throne judgment however a couple of scriptures reveals that this is likely not the case as the saved dead also stand in judgment at that same time.
Jn 5:28-29 Jesus himself stated: Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth—those having done good to the resurrection of life, and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Jesus cites a specific hour (singular) in which ALL those in the tombs will be resurrected – both the “good” AND the “evil.” The Apostle Paul confirms the same thing when he stated: “having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be A resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust.” (Acts 24:15). Paul referred to a [singular] resurrection of both the just and the unjust which parallels Jesus’ statement in John 5. At the GWT judgment, the saved and unsaved dead are judged according to what they had done (their works). Our obedience to Christ and the leading of the Spirit is the measure of our remaining sealed or not.
LikeLiked by 1 person
that is EXACTLY what it does NOT say! no where in any translation of any Bible are the words “lose your salvation” think about that for say 20 years.
LikeLike
Hey Stanton
If a born again person will never risk losing his/her salvation no matter the conduct, the same person has a license to sin.
GBU
LikeLike
you really do not read your Bible do you? Pauls’ answer to your response is “God forbid” most all of romans chapter 6 addresses your, as you put it, “sin license”. Specifically verses 1 and 15. You are however trying to squirm out from under your claim that you can be unsealed. Scripture to back that? Chapter and verse please. Let me help you… there is not one. here are a couple that say you are sealed “unto the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30 and again in 1:13,14). Do you know when the day of redemption is? Apparently not, if you are falsely teaching (and you are) that any Christian could be unsealed prior to the return of Jesus. Now, I have shown you two scriptures that very plainly say that you cannot be unsealed. It is your turn to show me even just one scripture from the Bible that says that you can be unsealed. You can wrest the scriptures all you want (and you do) but you wont find one! Try asking your buddy Satan, he wants you to be able to get as many Christians to doubt there salvation as you can. My prayer for you is that the Lord will show you the meaning of His precepts on sewing and reaping. PS thanks for the avatar, I have always wanted one. and its Dr. (of Biblical Studies) Stanton
LikeLike
Hey Stanton
<< Pauls’ answer to your response is “God forbid” most all of romans chapter 6 addresses your, as you put it, “sin license”
I'm not sure you got my point. Paul is correct, but if osas-believers are correct then we have a license to sin.
<<You are however trying to squirm out from under your claim that you can be unsealed. Scripture to back that?
Yes, in the article.
<<Now, I have shown you two scriptures that very plainly say that you cannot be unsealed.
No, sorry you haven't.
<< It is your turn to show me even just one scripture from the Bible that says that you can be unsealed.
John 15 and Luke 15. Being cut off the vine due to lack of fruit, and the prodigal son who went from life, to death, to life again.
<<! Try asking your buddy Satan
Satan says "Surely you shalt not die" to believers who sin (like Eve). He was lying. The opposite is true, because sin separates us from God. Exactly what is the difference between his "you shall not die" and your "you shall not die"?
, <<he wants you to be able to get as many Christians to doubt there salvation as you can.
If Christians can never lose their salvation, what difference would it make?
GBU
LikeLike
Stanton är absolutely rätt!
Den tis 23 okt. 2018 23:33Bjorkbloggen skrev:
> Stanton Hill commented: “you really do not read your Bible do you? Pauls’ > answer to your response is “God forbid” most all of romans chapter 6 > addresses your, as you put it, “sin license”. Specifically verses 1 and 15. > You are however trying to squirm out from under your claim th” >
LikeLike
Your reply is based on an argument from silence which is one of the weakest, if not weakest forms of argumentation. For example, the word “trinity” is not in any Bible translation either but do you believe in the triune God?
If you believe that you could not lose your salvation then you would also suffer no consequences and retain your salvation even if you took the mark of the beast, correct? If you claim that you would never take the mark in the first place, then your presumption would be on par with Peter who also claimed that he would never betray Jesus, yet we all know what happened to Peter.
LikeLike
Evan,
Yeah, I was just going to say that it is possible that the reply would be “a true Christian would never take the mark of the beast in the first place” 🙂
I don’t think I ever made a list of osas-verses on my blog (apart from individuals who lost and sometimes regained salvation) so maybe it’s time.
GBU
LikeLike
YOU NEED TO CLOSE YOUR WEBSITE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT BORN AGAIN! THE SEAL CAN NOT BE BROKEN! ROM 8:30
Den mån 22 okt. 2018 17:36Bjorkbloggen skrev:
> Stanton Hill commented: “that is EXACTLY what it does NOT say! no where in > any translation of any Bible are the words “lose your salvation” think > about that for say 20 years.” >
LikeLike
Ove,
You make me smile:)
GBU
LikeLike
Godly preachers are not immune to error therefore one should not exclusively rely on preachers for understanding the Word of God as one should study the Word for himself/herself. Romans 8:30 is probably the most cited verse for those who believe in eternal security. Referred to as the “golden chain of salvation” this verse at first glance appears to support the belief that those whom the Father predestined/chose will in fact be glorified – no exceptions. However if it can be demonstrated that any of the “links” in this chain of salvation can be broken, then salvation is not so secure after all – even for the elect. Note the word called/kaleo in v.30. It is the same Greek word found in Galatians 1:6. In this verse Paul marvels at the fact that some Galatians despite being “kaleo” are deserting Christ and turning to follow another gospel. If kaleo/called refers to the elect in Rom 8:30 then it must also refer to the elect in Gal 1:6. Paul observed that these Galatians were true believers who were apostatizing from the faith in order to follow another gospel. Despite being the elect – chosen and called/kaleo by the Father – they did not persevere and instead fell away. Therefore the linear chain of progression leading to salvation in Rom 8:30 does not by Paul’s own witness in Gal 1:6 demonstrate any security of salvation. The golden chain of salvation and eternal security is not so unbreakable after all. The Apostle Paul in fact taught the opposite for in the very same chapter, Paul warns the brethren in Rome: “For if you live according to the flesh, YOU WILL DIE; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live” (Rom 8:30).
LikeLike
Hey Evan
“Note the word called/kaleo in v.30. It is the same Greek word found in Galatians 1:6. In this verse Paul marvels at the fact that some Galatians despite being “kaleo” are deserting Christ and turning to follow another gospel. If kaleo/called refers to the elect in Rom 8:30 then it must also refer to the elect in Gal 1:6. ”
Great point, AGAIN!
I should add it to that article, but there are loads of things I should add …
LikeLike
YOU SHOULD CLOSE YOUR BLOGG , MY FRIEND! YOUR ARE DECEIVING PEOPLE WHO READ YOUR BLOGG! OVE(MISSIONARY IN BRAZIL 1991-2006)
Den tis 2 okt. 2018 11:34Bjorkbloggen skrev:
> Evan commented: “Godly preachers are not immune to error therefore one > should not exclusively rely on preachers for understanding the Word of God > as one should study the Word for himself/herself. Romans 8:30 is probably > the most cited verse for those who believe in eterna” >
LikeLike
Ove, no need to shout.
LikeLike
One issue is your are quoting from uninspired books of the Bible. Also most scholars believe Clement never wrote 2nd clement . You are basing a lot of what you believe on falliable church fathers or do you also believe Jesus lives to 50?
LikeLike
Hello there!
If you take a look on my blog articles you will see that I’m not basing “a lot” of what I believe on church fathers. It’s the Bible that is the word of God. I’ve quoted from church fathers on a few occasions when making a point – like when I want to show what church fathers believed about certain issues. Once in a while I also quote from the book of Jasher and the book of Enoch, but I don’t let them stand in the way of the Bible either.
No, I don’t believe Jesus lived to be 50.
God bless!
LikeLike
YOU ARE DECEIVING PEOPLE AND SHOULD CLOSE YOUR BLOGG!
IF YOU BELIEVE A PERSON CAN LOSE HIS/HER SALVATION YOU DON’T KNOW THE FOUNDATION OF SALVATION!
ROM 8:30
WHY DON’T YOU READ ABOUT WHAT SOME GODLY PREACHERS SAY ABOUT THIS!
READ ETERNAL SALVATION BY HARRY IRONSIDE ON GOOGLE
HE EXPLAINS IT PRETTY GOOD!
I AM PRAYING FOR YOU!
OVE IN SWEDEN
Den 1 okt. 2018 19:29 skrev “Bjorkbloggen” :
BjorkBloggen commented: “Hello there! If you take a look on my blog articles you will see that I’m not basing “a lot” of what I believe on church fathers. It’s the Bible that is the word of God. I’ve quoted from church fathers on a few occasions when making a point – like when I”
LikeLike
Hello Ove
No need to shout – we can hear you.
Do read my blog article about Rom. 8:30, and don’t forget that a branch can be cut off from the vine (Jesus) due to lack of fruit. The prodigal son went from life, to death, to life again.
God bless!
LikeLike
When Paul talked about circumcision He was only answering to those who based their salvation to being circumcissed. Remember circumcision was only a shadow of a true thing to come see Hebrews 10:1.
Circumcision of the old testament pointed at the true circumcision of the heart. See Ezekiel 36:25-28. This passage clearly shows that this act of circumcision of the heart is done by God’s power( word) and that its only after that process that God himself again can anable us to follow His decrees and commands/ laws see Ezekiel 36:27.
This also explains Titus 2:11-12. The grace of God is an enabling power for Christians to live righteous lives.
Be blessed.
LikeLike
Yes, circumcision was one of the ceremonial laws within the Jewish law.
It’s also true that we get the holy Spirit by God’s power. Note however that in order to get the holy Ghost we must first repent (Acts 2:38) which is our responsibility.
God created us all to seek him and find him (Acts 17). He expects us all to repent, and we can all do this and follow his commandments. If we don’t follow them, it’s always our fault (because we are all enabled to follow them) and never God’s fault.
LikeLike
By the time we repent we will have already desired to live a holy life and this also comes by the word of God.
We hear the word, we receive faith, we confess Jesus as our personal Lord and saviour, in that process we repent, we receive the holy ghost and the relationship with God continues.
The word of God is continued to be preached to us to sanctify us or renew or mind which was spoiled by the way of the world.
LikeLike
Yes, it’s true that we, when we repent, have the desire to live a holy life together with God. That is the idea of repenting.
Amen to that!
LikeLike
I John 3:7 says that those who practice righteousness not those who perfect righteousness are children of God..
But also verses 9 shows us that they cant continue to sin because God’s nature remains in them. Hence its by God’s power ( nature) in us that we cant continue to sin or we can actually do righteousness.
Also if its by work then Jesus died in vain because we could work for this salvation. Period. Isaiah 64:6.
Also what you quoted in John 14:23-24 is a relationship love between God and His children. He was only meaning that if you obey His commands, you will be able to experience God more than others.
LikeLike
The Bible says that faith without works is dead, and that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (Ja. 2:24). However, it’s also true that we are not saved by works alone. It takes one sin to be a sinner. Yes, Jesus would have died in vain if the Jewish law (613 laws in all) would still stand. Sometimes “works” is tied to the Jewish law.
Obeying is not only tied to our temporary relationship with God here on earth, but it’s also a question of eternal life or eternal damnation. Fortunately we get more than once chance to be faithful to Jesus.
LikeLike
I John 3:7 says that those who practice righteousness not those who perfect righteousness are children of God..
But also verses 9 shows us that they cant continue to sin because God’s nature remains in them. Hence its by God’s power ( nature) in us that we cant continue to sin or we can actually do righteousness.
LikeLike
Hello there
It’s indeed about God’s power and grace.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
This means that we are the ones that must do righteousness.
If we remain in Jesus, and if we are lead by the holy Spirit, we cannot sin because the holy Spirit will always lead us away from sin. If we lose the grip, however, we risk sinning. We must endure to the end.
Jesus also says:
Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
God bless
LikeLike
It doesn’t say if we remain in Jesus rather it says if the nature of God is in them, they can’t continue to sin hence that nature is the power that enables us Christians to live a righteous life
LikeLike
The Bible days teach “if you remain” in Jesus. For instance in James 15.
“6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.”
If you by “the nature of God” (not a Biblical phrase) mean the holy Ghost, then yes if he certainly a reality in our lives.
Since sinners are able to do right (they are for instance able to repent before they have the holy Ghost) it’s not possible to say that we are only able to do right unless God specifically enables us. Unless you’re talking about God’s creation and how he enabled us all to do right.
LikeLike
No I’m not SDA. I don’t agree with your assertion that “It will be automatic for us, for it is now in our spiritual ”DNA” so to speak to reject it” as it goes against the text. Rev 14:9 contains a conditional clause indicated by the word “if.” The word “if” indicates possibility – not certainty. This verse also references “anyone.” Anyone means everyone including believers. Therefore IF BELIEVERS take the mark they will suffer the consequences of their choice. You and I and every other believer has the choice whether to sin or not to sin as that is a daily battle between the flesh and the Spirit. It is not “automatic” as taking the mark is just another example of whether to sin or not as it is a “choice” as indicated by the word IF.
Your confidence that you will never take the mark may be well-intentioned and hopefully true but Peter was supremely confident and well-intentioned also when he emphatically stated that he would be willing to go to prison and even death. Instead as you know Peter denied the Lord 3x. If Peter who walked daily with Jesus and spoke with him face-to-face denied his Savior, it would be wise for us to heed the possibility that we may also deny the Lord. Peter was overconfident. Unlike you I can only say for myself that I HOPE I will not take the mark.
LikeLike
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us” (1 Joh 1:8-10).
Hi Annika,
I apologize for taking so long to answer you, but I wanted to be thorough. As I stated in my first commentary regarding your argument, you have made this statement by Paul about being “sealed unto redemption” conditional, and it is not. Whether taken in or out of context, Paul’s statement here is not a conditional one. You have yet to show otherwise. I would hope you can recognize this one point.
For sure, without a doubt, what Paul says in this passage is not subjective. It is very definitive and is actually quite final. He does not leave it open to interpretation or discussion. He states it as fact. Once we as Christians, have received the Holy Spirit, we are “sealed unto redemption.” I asked you to show me an “if” there or an “unless” in his statement. You could not for the very reason there are none. Jesus said: “I will never leave you nor forsake you” (Heb 13:5). He makes a promise, and He keeps it. The Lord has never broken a covenant yet.
Another point: Do you not know that the Covenant of Grace is an “unconditional” covenant unlike the Old Covenant of the Law which is conditional. Do you know the difference between the two? According to the Scriptures, grace is premised on Christ dying on the Cross for our sins. It has nothing to do with our works, and everything to do with the Lord. All we can do is either accept His grace or reject it. It is a gift, freely given and freely accepted or rejected. You seem to believe that we are continuing on under the Old Covenant of the Law, but, as Christians, we are way beyond that.
My question to you is: “Do you understand the difference between the conditional Old Covenant of the Law and the unconditional New Covenant of Grace? Do you understand why there is a difference?” From your arguments, you seem to have one foot in the Old Covenant and one in the New.
Our salvation is not conditioned on anything we do. It is conditioned on what we believe and Who we believe in. What you are preaching here is based in legalism and not on grace.
You said that those of us who believe in “once saved, always saved” use it as a license to sin. Heaven forbid. I don’t want to sin, but I do. Everyone does. Do you think that you do not sin? Do you think you are perfect? If you do, would that not be a sin in itself? John tells us:
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us” (1Jo 1:8-10).
I would ask you this important question: After we are saved, we all sin. Would you agree with that? How then, are our sins covered, cleansed, and forgiven? Do we do works of repentance to cleanse our own selves of all unrighteousness or do we go to the Lord and tell Him what we did and ask His forgiveness and ask Him to cleanse us?
I don’t know about you, but about the time I think I’m not going to do a particular sin anymore, not long after I find myself doing it. Does this mean I’ve lost my salvation? Heaven forbid! But, I forgot, you don’t sin, and according to you, all who sin after they are saved lose their salvation. That is a sad commentary to accept.
But, what is Paul’s take on all this? Paul talks about this extensively in Romans 7. And what was his conclusion? He said:
“O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin” (Rom 7:24-25).
Keep in mind, Paul was saved when he said this.
Annika, you say that Jesus did not pay for our sins on the Cross. Have you not read the Scriptures? Please then interpret the following passage:
“That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” (Eph 1:12-14)
My answer to you is this: Are we not the “purchased possession” Paul is talking about in these verses? Is not an earnest a “deposit” in a contract, a “guarantee” of sorts. Do not contracts have “seals”? A covenant is a contract, and Paul is using legal terms here. Yes, of course we have been purchased for a price with the blood of Christ! We had been sentenced to die for our sins, and He came to earth to pay our debt so that He could take us to Heaven.
I also don’t agree with you that our heart is always mirrored in our actions. I think I have experience to answer this one. My husband and I just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary last month. We wouldn’t have stayed married so long if we had only gauged the actions and not the heart. I would say our actions should mirror the Christian heart, but we are imperfect and can sometimes do things we are not proud of. At those times, it’s worth everything to have a mate who will stand by you in love and with you in all your human frailties. That’s what God does.
Just look at the men and women of the Bible. They didn’t always do the right thing, but God didn’t abandon them. He still loved them, forgave them, and used them for His holy purposes. After the flood, Noah became an alcoholic and didn’t send his children out to populate the earth as he was commanded. Abraham didn’t obey the Lord in many ways, but he was faithful concerning Isaac. Jacob was a liar and stole his brother’s blessings and later wrestled with God. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then sent her husband off to fight in war knowing he would most likely die in battle. Solomon built pagan temples in Israel for his foreign wives. Peter denied Jesus three times. But, in all these cases, the Lord looked at their hearts and saw their potential. They all repented and He forgave them. And, that’s the way He looks at us.
You say: “The opposite of grace is to believe we can be saved even if we sin?” How did you come to such a conclusion? Please, give me scripture for such a preposterous thought! There is none. The truth is we cannot receive grace unless we recognize we are sinners! “For all have sinned…” You know the verse. Grace saves us from our sin. I think you have this upside down and backwards.
Annika, you said: “It sounds like you’re saying that we’re saved as long as we sin and openly declare that we sin…
My answer is this: No, I’m saying if we say we don’t sin, we are fooling ourselves. Everyone sins, saved or unsaved. I don’t think we should necessarily “openly” declare our sins. We should go into our private “closets” and discuss it with the Lord. Our righteousness has nothing whatsoever to do with anything we do. And, there is nothing we can do to overcome this world. Our righteousness comes from the Lord, and He is the Overcomer. We overcome the world through Him. We can do nothing except through Him. He is “our buckler, our shield, our strength, and our Redeemer.”
Annika, you said: “…but we are in big trouble if we don’t sin and if we believe we can live righteous lives and being totally faithful to Jesus? Sinners go to heaven but saints go to hell?”
My answer to you is this: If you believe you “don’t sin,” then yes, I would say you are in “big trouble” spiritually. I believe that all true Christians become saints in Heaven, and I believe unrepentant sinners go in the opposite direction. The Bible says: “God is no respecter of persons.”
I would say it is self-righteous to believe one can do anything through works to get into even the first level of Heaven. Works simply won’t get you there. We were tossed out way back in the time of Adam and Eve. Jesus paid the price to bring us back from that eternal separation from Him. He gave us a pardon. He paid the price for our sins.
Yes, I am a sinner who lives for Christ. I know I am an imperfect being who needs Christ in order to be made whole. I know I will continue to sin even though I have received eternal salvation in Christ. I also know that I can go to the Lord and that “He is willing and just” to forgive me of all my sins. Does that mean that I willfully sin? Heaven forbid. But, I will continue to stumble all the days of my life. When I do, I will pick myself up, ask forgiveness, and continue working for the purpose my Lord put me on this earth to fulfill. I don’t do any of this in fear of losing my salvation. I do this because I love the Lord.
Back to the overall discussion. I have another question. According to your argument, how bad do my sins have to get before I lose my salvation? Will I lose it for eating the extra piece of cake? For telling my neighbor she looks great in that hideous dress? Or because I got a shiver down my spine when the hand of a good looking man accidentally touched mine? Where is it in the Bible telling us about the degrees of losing one’s salvation? And, exactly what would cause me to lose my salvation? Where is repentance in all this?
Yet, according to the Bible, the only way for anyone not to be saved is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And what exactly is that? It is denying Christ. Hell is filled with people who had the opportunity to recognize Christ, believe in Him, and accept His offer of grace through faith, but turned Him down. Sadly, this often includes people sitting in church pews that claim they believe and yet in their hearts deny His divinity and His offer of salvation.
And, what is denying Christ? It is not accepting Who He says He is and rejecting His gift of grace.
Jesus Christ of Nazareth is God come to earth in the flesh. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit, He was born perfectly of a Virgin, He was the only one Who ever lived a perfect life without sin, He died on the Cross for the sins of the world, He was raised the third day, and He now sits on the right hand of God the Father, and will come again soon for His own!
Meanwhile, He has sent us the Comforter, God the Holy Spirit, to indwell in us His followers to provide guidance, comfort, and wisdom so that we can live according to His will. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Eternal Son and Second Person of the Trinity of God––and the Trinity is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit––One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity!
When the Holy Spirit came into my heart, like Paul, I know that I know that I know Who Christ is beyond a shadow of a doubt! He is my Lord and Savior. There is none beside Him––no not one. In the fullness of the Godhead, He is Lord God Jehovah, Creator of the Universe, and Him only do I worship. He is Abba––”Daddy.” He has brought me into right relationship with Him when I accepted on faith His offer of salvation. In Him I have eternal salvation. Thus, I remain secure in my salvation and can “come boldly before His throne” (Heb 4:16).
Think about this: It is reasonable to ascertain through the Scriptures that those in the Church that “fall away” were never saved in the first place. For their own reasons, they pretended to be followers of Christ, but were not. When it was time to step up to the “Door” and go in, they did not. They did not enter in, for the Lord did not receive them. Therefore, they never had the indwelling Holy Spirit in the first place and thus were never “sealed.” Sadly, like Judas Iscariot, their “end” will be worse than their “beginning.”
As for me, I want to stay as close to the Lord as possible. I want to fill up with the Holy Spirit every day. I accept when the Lord says He came so we can “have life and life more abundantly” (Joh 10:10). He tells me to give my burdens over to Him, for His “yoke is easy” and “his burdens light” (Mat 11:30). The Scriptures tell me how to live in “the shadow of my Lord’s wings” (Psa 17:8), and that He will love me, protect me, and care for me. The Scriptures tell me that there is “none righteous, no not one” (Rom 3:10). We are only made righteous through Christ Jesus.
At the same time, the Scriptures tell me that my Lord will forgive me of my sins, and I accept that. In Romans, we read:
“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth [assigns] righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Rom 4:1-8, Words in brackets added).
Thus, the Scriptures tell me how to live in the confidence and knowledge or eternal life with God in Heaven. The Scriptures do not tell me that at any moment, if I make one wrong move, the Lord is going to snatch my salvation out from under me. That is why Jesus Christ came to earth in the first place. We were all dying in our sins and He came to save us. Yes, He came to save the whole world, but He also said that, sadly, only a few would accept His most magnificent offer for redemption and eternal glory.
I was saved at five years of age. I am now 72. I have spent my life in the study of God’s Word. I was raised Southern Baptist and attended Pentecostal churches for several years in my adult life, but came back to the Baptist denomination. I’ve debated with many people of different Christian denominations on various subjects, as well as Christian cults and even those of the Hindu, Buddhist, and Muslim religions. I do this in love–love for my Lord and love for my fellow man.
Your take on losing one’s salvation is really quite unique. I personally do not find it to be scripturally based. I would be interested in knowing your religious background and where your views originate. I do know of a grace and law theological movement that has your similar views on losing one’s salvation, but they still seem to hold different viewpoints on other things.
For me, the bottom line is this: According to the Bible doctrine regarding the New Covenant of Grace, our salvation is not conditioned on anything we do. It is conditioned on what we believe and Who we believe in, that is Christ our Savior. He saves us when we accept Him on faith, and it is “not of works lest any man should boast.” What you are preaching here is based in the legalism found in the Old Covenant of the Law and not on grace which is the foundation for the New Covenant of Grace. It appears you are mixing the two.
I will let the Bible speak for itself. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and remain confident and secure in our salvation.
LikeLike
Hello there
I just happened to find your post in my spam file, and it’s just a lucky fluke that I didn’t delete it. I wonder why WordPress thought this post was spam and not your previous ones. (If you are missing more of your posts, maybe they too ended up among the spam.)
I’ll get back to you later!
GBU
LikeLike
Hello again
Maybe WordPress thought your post was so long that they took it as spam 🙂 I’m writing a looong post here myself:
<< you have made this statement by Paul about being ”sealed unto redemption” conditional, and it is not. This is shown already in the article itself.
I explained that it's clearly conditional, and if it would not be conditional we have a license to sin.
<<For sure, without a doubt, what Paul says in this passage is not subjective. It is very definitive and is actually quite final.
Indeed it is. Sin leads to death also for Christians, and that is non-negotiable:
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
<<Once we as Christians, have received the Holy Spirit, we are ”sealed unto redemption.” I asked you to show me an ”if” there or an ”unless” in his statement. You could not for the very reason there are none.
I repeat my prevous comment again for you:
**Unless there is an "if" in the verse, there are no conditions? If you read Matt. 6:6, can you see any if:s there? Do you always pray in secret behind a closed "closet"? Or should the verse be read in context? Do read this article where I show you loads of "if:s"
https://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/07/we-are-saved-if-there-are-conditions/
Example:
Romans 8:10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But IF IF IF the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For IF IF IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but IF IF IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.**
<<< Jesus said: ”I will never leave you nor forsake you” (Heb 13:5). He makes a promise, and He keeps it. The Lord has never broken a covenant yet.
Jesus does not say above that he will unconditionally stand by our side even if we turn our backs on him and sin. However, just like the Father to the prodigal son, he stands there hoping we will repent and return back to him, but he will certainly not hunt us down and use force on us. And covenants have been broken before, like the "eternal" covenant with Israel. The Israelites broke it first.
<<Another point: Do you not know that the Covenant of Grace is an ”unconditional” covenant unlike the Old Covenant of the Law which is conditional.
You have to show me a verse for this claim. I've shown you loads of "if-verses, showing that there are still laws to obey if we want to be regarded as children of God. I've also shown you Titus 2:11-12 where we can read that the grace of God teaches us to live without sin here and now. Sin still leads to death. Satan is the one saying otherwise.
<<Do you know the difference between the two?
Did you read my previous comments about the law?
<< According to the Scriptures, grace is premised on Christ dying on the Cross for our sins. It has nothing to do with our works
It has loads to do with works. See my previous posts where I show this.
<< All we can do is either accept His grace or reject it. It is a gift, freely given and freely accepted or rejected.
Are you teaching a license to sin? Jesus taught the requirement of repentance and that means leaving the old man behind.
<<My question to you is: ”Do you understand the difference between the conditional Old Covenant of the Law and the unconditional New Covenant of Grace? Do you understand why there is a difference?”
I've already answered to this question. I quote from my earlier posts:
**We are not under the old covenant but we are not living in lawlessness with no commandments to obey. Those commandments which applied before Moses still apply. It's still a sin to murder, steal, lie, commit adultery, etc.**
<<Our salvation is not conditioned on anything we do.
I've already showed you that we are justified by works and not by faith alone, and I've already shown you where Jesus, Paul, John, etc, disagree with you.
<< It is conditioned on what we believe and Who we believe in.
Don't forget that also demons believe and tremble, but James point was that they are still not saved. That's because the lack of good works.
<<What you are preaching here is based in legalism and not on grace.
I've already asked you if you feel it's legalism to be faithful to God.
<<You said that those of us who believe in ”once saved, always saved” use it as a license to sin. Heaven forbid. I don’t want to sin, but I do. Everyone does.
So you DO teach a license to sin.
<< Do you think that you do not sin? Do you think you are perfect?
Do I sin? Right now? No. Can I sin? Yes, even Jesus can sin. Are we created to live without sin for days, years and for ever? Yes. Have I personally lived totally free of sin? Sadly not. The Bible says, that if we love Jesus we obey him. We can't be saved if we have sin left in our life. Jesus taught "Be ye perfect". Didn't he know we can't be perfect?
<<If you do, would that not be a sin in itself? John tells us:—- (1Jo 1:8-10).
Pay attention to v. 9, and unfortunately you forgot v. 6-7 which show the conditions for salvation:
1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Notice the "if". If we walk in darkness (if we SIN), we lie and do not the the truth. Lying is a sin. What is the requirement from being cleansed from out sin and to have fellowship with him and other children of God? That we WALK in the light (that we obey him and avoid sin). Or are you saying that you sin every second around the clock? Is there not one minute one day that you can say that you have no sin? Why the need for repentance if we sin around the clock? Why does Jesus say "if you love me, keep my commandments" if he doesn't mean it since we can't avoid sinning? I've asked you earlier if you believe it's unnatural for Christians to avoid sin, and you seem to confirm that this is the way you feel.
<<I would ask you this important question: After we are saved, we all sin. Would you agree with that?
No.
<< How then, are our sins covered, cleansed, and forgiven?
We have the answer from 1 John. 1:6-10 above, by confessing sins, repenting and walking in the light.
<<Do we do works of repentance to cleanse our own selves of all unrighteousness or do we go to the Lord and tell Him what we did and ask His forgiveness and ask Him to cleanse us?
Admitting that we sin is not good enough. Jesus taught repentance. That means start living a life in holiness. The Bible teaches the requirement of repentance, but you teach that it's enough to confess that we continue to sin.
<<I don’t know about you, but about the time I think I’m not going to do a particular sin anymore, not long after I find myself doing it. Does this mean I’ve lost my salvation? Heaven forbid!
Yes, that would mean that you're not a child of God if you continue to sin. Again, if you love Jesus, you obey him. Which sin can you not stop doing for Jesus? The Bible teaches that the holy Spirit (if we choose to be lead by him) leads us away from sin, but you teach that it's totally natural for Christians to sin.
<<But, I forgot, you don’t sin, and according to you, all who sin after they are saved lose their salvation. That is a sad commentary to accept.
They don't lose their salvation if they repent and stop sinning. If they mix righteousness and sins, they are clearly not saved since they don't walk in the light.
<<But, what is Paul’s take on all this?
I've already shown you. Sinning leads to death:
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
<< Paul talks about this extensively in Romans 7. And what was his conclusion? He said:
”O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin” (Rom 7:24-25).
My Greek teacher has told me that it's definitely possible (just like in English) to describe something with details in present tense despite that it happened in past tense. Paul is of course not saying that he continued to sin also after his conversion. You can see this in the last sentence and you can see this in the chapter before and after. Paul said in another place that he has a perfect conscience. Would you have a perfect conscience if you sinned? It seems like your solution to verses that you don't like is to ignore them, at the same time as you take a verse out of context and highlight it. Please explain how Paul can both teach that sinning leads to death, at the same time as he is the greatest sinner of all and can't stop sinning?
<<Annika, you say that Jesus did not pay for our sins on the Cross. Have you not read the Scriptures? Please then interpret the following passage:
”That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” (Eph 1:12-14)
Where does it say that he paid for our sins on the cross?
<<My answer to you is this: Are we not the ”purchased possession” —
Also bought possessions can be lost:
2 Pet. 1:But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that BOUGHT them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
<< I Do not contracts have ”seals”?
Sure, and seals can be broken.
<< He came to earth to pay our debt so that He could take us to Heaven.
I quote from a previous post:
—————————
** — I personally avoid using "payment" when it comes to the atonement due to the risk of being misunderstood. Yes, Jesus paid a high price for us since he gave up his own life, but he did not "pay for our sins". Paid is paid, and no one pays an invoice twice. If Jesus "paid for our sins", then we are forgiven before we are even born, and our sins are forgiven before we even commit them. This would be the same as having a license to sin. This would further mean that Jesus died so that we could sin in peace with no worries about any consequences.**
——————
<<My husband and I just celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary last month.
Congratulations!
<<We wouldn’t have stayed married so long if we had only gauged the actions and not the heart.
So would you indeed be able to tell your spouse: "I'm so glad that you accept that I'm not perfect and that you shouldn't expect me to stay faithful to you during all of our marriage! In fact, it's totally impossible for me to be obedient to my wedding vows, and I'm so glad that you find it nothing but normal that we sometimes fail and end up cheating and lying to each other"? Wouldn't you rather expect faithfulness? If even atheists can manage to stay faithful and avoid lying, stealing, cheating, etc, shouldn't we at least expect the same from Christians with the holy Spirit?
<<Just look at the men and women of the Bible. They didn’t always do the right thing, but God didn’t abandon them.
He didn't abandon them because they repented. Had they not repented, he would have abandon them.
Matt. 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
<<After the flood, Noah became an alcoholic and didn’t send his children out to populate the earth as he was commanded.
There is no verse confirming these two statements. And again, anyone can decide to repent and get sins forgiven.
<< Abraham didn’t obey the Lord in many ways, but he was faithful concerning Isaac
"Many" ways? I know of a couple ways only. Abraham is famous for his constant obedience to God.
<<. Jacob was a liar and stole his brother’s blessings and later wrestled with God.
Was he constantly lying? I know of a couple of occasions here too, and just like all people he could have chosen to admit his sins and repent in order to be forgiven. The wrestling match is not listed as a sin but could just as well be regarded as a divine test. (This is worth a blog post in itself.)
<<David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then sent her husband off to fight in war knowing he would most likely die in battle.
Yes, and lived in adultery and lied for about a year. Had he died during that year he would not have made it to heaven. Thankfully he repented.
<<Solomon built pagan temples in Israel for his foreign wives.
And possibly also lost his salvation for ever.
<<Peter denied Jesus three times.
And what was Jesus promise? If we deny him, he will deny us. He was not kidding. Salvation is conditioned on obedience.Thankfully Peter repented.
<<But, in all these cases, the Lord looked at their hearts and saw their potential. They all repented and He forgave them.
Exactly! They repented. But if the story is that we all sin around the clock, then repenting would be unnecessary.
<<You say: ”The opposite of grace is to believe we can be saved even if we sin?” How did you come to such a conclusion?
I already explained it. Titus 2:11-12 tells us that the grace from God is about teaching us to stay away from sin here and now. This means that false grace is the opposite – the idea that grace does not teach us that we can stay away from sin but that we rather be forgiven despite our sins.
<<I’m saying if we say we don’t sin, we are fooling ourselves.
So a license to sin. The idea that sinning is normal for Christians and living a holy life is abnormal.
<< Everyone sins, saved or unsaved.
Can you explain what the exact difference is between your gospel and Satan's gospel? Aren't you both teaching "Ye shalt not surely die?"
<<We should go into our private ”closets” and discuss it with the Lord.
Why? If we can be saved in our sins, just like Satan says, why the need to communicate much with the Lord? Can we lose our salvation if we don't?
<<Our righteousness has nothing whatsoever to do with anything we do.
I've already shown you the opposite. Do you read my posts?
1 John 3:7b Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
<< Our righteousness comes from the Lord, and He is the Overcomer.
WE are the ones who must obey God. Jesus won't do it for us.
<<My answer to you is this: If you believe you ”don’t sin,” then yes, I would say you are in ”big trouble” spiritually. I believe that all true Christians become saints in Heaven, and I believe unrepentant sinners go in the opposite direction.
So which one is it? First you claim that there is only one sin in existence that could make us lose our salvation and that is if we avoid sin and believe we can stay faithful to Jesus. Then you claim that unrepentant sinners will not go to heaven after all, but if it's nothing but natural for Christians to sin, why the need to "repent" if we can't stop sinning?
Matt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
<<I would say it is self-righteous to believe one can do anything through works to get into even the first level of Heaven
Is it self righteous to stay faithful to Jesus? Was James self righteous for saying that we are justified by works and not by faith alone?
<<Jesus paid the price to bring us back from that eternal separation from Him. He gave us a pardon. He paid the price for our sins.
The Bible doesn't say that he "paid for us", or paid for our "sins".
<<Yes, I am a sinner who lives for Christ.
In what way do you live for Christ? By spreading the gospel that sinning is perfectly natural, that Christians can't obey Jesus, that it's self righteous to suggest that we can be faithful to Jesus, etc? Is this something that will please God?
<< I know I will continue to sin even though I have received eternal salvation in Christ.
So Jesus was wrong for saying that if we love him we obey him, and that branches can be cut off the vine due to lack of fruit?
<< I also know that I can go to the Lord and that ”He is willing and just” to forgive me of all my sins.
A license to sin.
<<But, I will continue to stumble all the days of my life.
You mean "sin"? Yes, I understand you believe that sinning no longer leads to death and that Satan was right all along. Or did I misunderstand you?
<<When I do, I will pick myself up, ask forgiveness, and continue working for the purpose my Lord put me on this earth to fulfill.
Does your work include the teaching that sinning no longer leads to death and that we have a license to sin? Why do you ask for forgiveness if you sin? Will you lose your salvation otherwise?
<< Will I lose it for eating the extra piece of cake?
Does the Bible say it's a sin to eat lots of cake?
<< For telling my neighbor she looks great in that hideous dress?
How about avoiding lying? How about just saying that it's not your style of dress if someone begs you for an opinion? How about telling her something encouraging that IS true? Shouldn't the holy Spirit be present and make you understand it's wrong to lie?
<< Or because I got a shiver down my spine when the hand of a good looking man accidentally touched mine?
Would you even know if the touch came from a man or a woman?
<< Where is it in the Bible telling us about the degrees of losing one’s salvation?
Is maybe one murder in a life not too much? Or committing adultery every other year? Or lying just once a month? Shouldn't we be able to stay away from all sins? Didn't it take just one sin for Adam and Eve to be evicted from Eden? If we truly have the holy Spirit active in our life, we know enough to stay away from sinning. IF we still sin (like telling a lie), then the normal situation is to repent at once. Not continue to sin and deceive ourselves with the idea that we can't stop but that God accepts us anyway.
<<Yet, according to the Bible, the only way for anyone not to be saved is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
And you added another sin, which is the sin of claiming we live a holy life. So as long as we continue to sin (and avoid blaspheming the holy Spirit), we're apparently fine.
<< It is denying Christ.
Peter denied Christ, but you believe he was never at risk to lose his salvation.
<<Hell is filled with people who had the opportunity to recognize Christ, believe in Him, and accept His offer of grace through faith, but turned Him down.
And apparently hell is also filled with Christians who have believed and taught (and lived) a holy life, which you believe is self righteous. Apparently Christians are only ok as long as they sin.
<<Meanwhile, He has sent us the Comforter, God the Holy Spirit, to indwell in us His followers to provide guidance, comfort, and wisdom so that we can live according to His will.
Really? So the holy Spirit guides us so that we can live according to his will? Wouldn't that be a life without sins?
<<Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Eternal Son and Second Person of the Trinity of God––and the Trinity is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit––One God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity!
Amen!
<<When the Holy Spirit came into my heart, like Paul, I know that I know that I know Who Christ is beyond a shadow of a doubt!
Demons do this as well. They understand that he is the holy one, the Messiah.
<<Think about this: It is reasonable to ascertain through the Scriptures that those in the Church that ”fall away” were never saved in the first place.
Do read my article with examples of people who started out as believers but lost their salvation. Nowhere in the Bible is there a promise that people who fell away were not saved to begin with. Falling away means they fell away from faith which they previously had.
<< ” Sadly, like Judas Iscariot, their ”end” will be worse than their ”beginning.”
Judas had the spiritual gifts. He could heal people, just like the other disciples, and he had a throne waiting for him in heaven. He lost it.
<<As for me, I want to stay as close to the Lord as possible.
By spreading the gospel that sinning is natural for Christians and that we can never stay faithful to him?
<< I want to fill up with the Holy Spirit every day.
By sinning every day?
<< He tells me to give my burdens over to Him, for His ”yoke is easy” and ”his burdens light” (Mat 11:30).
It also says the cross is heavy to carry. If we do obey the holy Spirit and live close to God, then the burdens seem light.
<< The Scriptures tell me that there is ”none righteous, no not one” (Rom 3:10).
Paul, who said that, called himself righteous and he was quoting a couple of psalms where we can read about righteous and unrighteous people. The unrighteous ones were the fools. As we have already covered, Paul taught that sinning leads to death.
<<”What shall we say then that Abraham our father, —-
Again, Paul was trying to get the Jews to understand that they are no longer under the Jewish laws with all the 613 detailed laws, including ceremonial laws such as circumcision. Paul also said:
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.
<<Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth [assigns] righteousness without works, —
"Impute" means "to reckon", so we can be regarded as righteous if we repent and become cleansed. Then we are regarded as righteous because we are!. The works that Paul is talking about is still in reference to his circumcision talk.
<<Thus, the Scriptures tell me how to live in the confidence and knowledge or eternal life with God in Heaven.
By spreading the word to as many as possible that we can never obey Jesus?
<< The Scriptures do not tell me that at any moment, if I make one wrong move, the Lord is going to snatch my salvation out from under me.
Is "wrong move" the same as "sin"? Yes, sinning will still cause death. Satan is the one with the opposite message.
<<That is why Jesus Christ came to earth in the first place.
So that we can sin in peace with no fear of any consequences?
<<We were all dying in our sins and He came to save us.
So the problem was sin, and then Jesus died so that we could continue as before (sinning) and still be saved?
<<I have spent my life in the study of God’s Word.
And you came to the conclusion that the best line of thinking is to believe that it's natural to be unfaithful to Jesus?
<< Your take on losing one’s salvation is really quite unique.
I think I was in my thirties the first time I came in contact with Christians (Americans) who believe in once saved always saved.
<<I personally do not find it to be scripturally based.
So when Jesus taught that branches can be cut off the vine due to lack of fruit, did you think he was joking?
<< I would be interested in knowing your religious background and where your views originate.
I've mostly attended pentecostal churches.
<<According to the Bible doctrine regarding the New Covenant of Grace, our salvation is not conditioned on anything we do.
And the Biblical teaching is that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.
<< He saves us when we accept Him on faith, and it is ”not of works lest any man should boast.”
Again. Eph. 2 does not teach that we cannot throw the gift away. V. 10 says we must walk in the good works, and walking is something we do.
<<What you are preaching here is based in the legalism found in the Old Covenant of the Law and not on grace which is the foundation for the New Covenant of Grace.
It's not legalism to be faithful to Jesus.
<<As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord
Do you serve the Lord the best by sinning and teaching others they are saved in their sins?
You seem to be such a nice lady, and you express yourself without flaws, but I believe you are in great error when it comes to the gospel. I wish we could have a talk over a cup of coffee, because I might sound too harsh when I write 🙂
GBU
LikeLike
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30)
What you write in your article appears to be convoluted and does not at all reflect what Paul says here in this passage. What he says is straightforward. He is telling us that we, as followers of Christ, are “sealed unto the day of redemption.” He does not make this conditional and yet you do. Do you see an “if” in this passage? No! There is none! You have read so much into this passage by Paul and thus conclude many false assumptions. Yes, a human seal can be broken, but this is God’s seal, given to us with a promise from Jesus through His shed blood. Thus, it is an unbreakable seal.
Further on, Paul talks about this being an “earnest”––a down payment if you will, and “guarantee” for our redemption at a future date as believers and followers of Christ. Therefore, Paul is telling us that we can have confidence we are saved for eternity to be with our Lord, for Christ has promised this unconditionally. Yet, your arguments would make “Christ’s gift of Grace” conditional based upon our own works of righteousness. Heaven forbid.
Grace is a free gift given from Christ and has nothing to do with anything we can do through works. The Bible tells us it is a “heart” thing. What we have to do to receive it is to recognize that we are imperfect and sinful and that, as God, Jesus Christ is the true righteousness and only He can save us. Paul said it succinctly: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It is not by works lest any man should boast.” (Eph 2:8-10)
Once saved, we have been created in Jesus “unto good works.” Our role––our purpose––has been preordained. Once saved, the “good works” that we do have nothing to do with maintaining our own salvation or even earning rewards in Heaven. Instead, our “good works” have to do with fulfilling God’s will here on this earth by growing the Kingdom of God. We are to do so with commitment, resolve, and a single-mindedness of purpose––regardless our circumstances or physical limitations.
Your argument for us being able to “lose” our salvation is based on too many false assumptions, including that we have a part in our own salvation through works––and that we have to be somehow perfectly “righteous” after we are saved in order to keep our salvation. That is not what the Bible teaches.
And, too, it seems in your arguments that you assume we are still partially under the Old Covenant of the Law, which is a “conditional” covenant based on God’s people abiding by the works of the Law. Those under this Covenant are bound by the Law. As Christians, we are not.
As followers of Christ, we are no longer under the Old Covenant of the Law. Instead, we are under the New Covenant of Grace and have entered into Christ’s “rest” (Heb 4:10-12). In another place, Jesus said: “No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God” (Luk 9:62). He was literally saying: “I want you to be fully committed to me.” If we have one foot in the Old Covenant, we can’t be fully committed to following Christ under the New Covenant. We have to pick one or the other.
Paul likens the Law to our “schoolmaster,” but now under Grace, we have graduated. He says in Galatians: “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” (Gal 3:24-25) Yes, the Law teaches us, but it is Grace that saves us.
The Covenant of Grace is an “unconditional” covenant based on mutual love, like that of the true love of a bridegroom and his bride. Freely given. Freely received. Which kind or relationship would you rather have?––one based on rewards and punishment or one based on mutual love and respect?
As Christians knowing this, why would we not want to stay in right relationship with the Lord? And, when, in all our human frailty, we do stray from the right path, we have the promise that he will forgive us. In such a way, we remain “sealed.”
John tells us that those who fall away didn’t have the truth in them to begin with. They may have had all the outer coverings of being Christian, but inside they were not. He says:
“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1Jo 1:6-9).
The key word here is “all.” Christ is all-encompassing in His forgiveness and His righteousness. Once we give our heart to Him, He holds us securely under the promise of His Grace “unto the day of redemption.”
No, the cleansing of our souls does not come through the righteousness of our works. It comes only through the righteousness that is Christ Jesus. When we ask the Lord into our hearts and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell in us, we are locked, loaded, and “sealed” unto the day the Lord returns and redeems us for His own. Thus, we can have confidence in Christ’s promise that we won’t lose our salvation.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey there and thanks for your post. I comment here as I read through it ….
<< He does not make this conditional and yet you do.
I showed in my article why it is conditional.
<< Do you see an “if” in this passage? No! There is none!
Unless there is an "if" in the verse, there are no conditions? If you read Matt. 6:6, can you see any if:s there? Do you always pray in secret behind a closed "closet"? Or should the verse be read in context? Do read this article where I show you loads of "if:s"
https://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/07/we-are-saved-if-there-are-conditions/
Example:
Romans 8:10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But IF IF IF the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For IF IF IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but IF IF IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
<<Yes, a human seal can be broken, but this is God’s seal, given to us with a promise from Jesus through His shed blood. Thus, it is an unbreakable seal.
Can God not break his seal, for instance if we don't meet the conditions?
<<Further on, Paul talks about this being an “earnest”––a down payment if you will, and “guarantee” for our redemption at a future date as believers and followers of Christ.
That is not what the passage says and I personally avoid using "payment" when it comes to the atonement due to the risk of being misunderstood. Yes, Jesus paid a high price for us since he gave up his own life, but he did not "pay for our sins". Paid is paid, and no one pays an invoice twice. If Jesus "paid for our sins", then we are forgiven before we are even born, and our sins are forgiven before we even commit them. This would be the same as having a license to sin. This would further mean that Jesus died so that we could sin in peace with no worries about any consequences.
<< Therefore, Paul is telling us that we can have confidence we are saved for eternity to be with our Lord, for Christ has promised this unconditionally.
Are you saying that we are saved even if we sin? That is not what the Bible says.
<<Yet, your arguments would make “Christ’s gift of Grace” conditional based upon our own works of righteousness. Heaven forbid.
Our own righteousness definitely has lots to do with it. We can of course not save ourselves since we have no authority to forgive ourselves our own sins, but after that we have been cleansed from our OLD sins upon repentance, then WE (not Jesus) have to walk in the light and avoid getting dirty again. Do not be deceived. We are living in the last times and the devil tries to make us comfortable in our sins.
1John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS is righteous, even as he is righteous.
<<Grace is a free gift given from Christ and has nothing to do with anything we can do through works.
All people have been given the opportunity (or grace/mercy) to get our sins removed and to enter the new Jerusalem, but the Bible also says that God gives grace to the HUMBLE (Ja. 4:6, 1 Pet. 5:5) which is a requirement for getting hold of this present. Moreover, grace is a help to live a righteous life here and now (Tit. 2:11-12). This means, that the opposite of grace is to believe we can be saved even if we sin.
<<The Bible tells us it is a “heart” thing.
Would we tell our spouse "I'm glad you love me despite that I'm not always faithful to you, and that you look at my heart instead of my actions"? Shouldn't a Christian heart mirror his/her actions?
<< What we have to do to receive it is to recognize that we are imperfect and sinful
It sounds like you're saying that we're saved as long as we sin and openly declare that we sin, but we are in big trouble if we don't sin and if we believe we can live righteous lives and being totally faithful to Jesus? Sinners go to heaven but saints go to hell?
<< (Eph 2:8-10)
Note that it does not say that we can be saved even if we sin. Salvation is a gift and nothing we can earn, but there are conditions for receiving this gift and we must make sure to not throw the gift away. Eph. 2:10 tells us correctly that we must WALK in the good works. What happens if we choose not to walk in them? Still saved? Paul makes it very clear that sin still causes death:
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness?
So our choice above is sin which will lead to death, or obedience which will lead to our righteousness and salvation.
<<Once saved, we have been created in Jesus “unto good works.”
Or rather that we should *walk* in them as mentioned above. If we fail to do good works, we are to be blamed and not God. Had it been up to God, we would do good works all the time and not sin even once.
<< Once saved, the “good works” that we do have nothing to do with maintaining our own salvation or even earning rewards in Heaven.
The Bible on the other hand says that faith without works is dead, and that we are justified BY WORKS and NOT by faith alone (Ja. 2:24).
<<Instead, our “good works” have to do with fulfilling God’s will here on this earth by growing the Kingdom of God.
What happens if we don't and what happens if we choose to mix sin into our lives?
<<Your argument for us being able to “lose” our salvation is based on too many false assumptions, including that we have a part in our own salvation through works––and that we have to be somehow perfectly “righteous” after we are saved in order to keep our salvation.
Either we have a license to sin or we can lose our salvation. The Bible couldn't be more clear that our salvation is conditioned on holy living. Remember that it was Satan who taught "once saved always saved" by getting Eve to believe she could remain saved even if she sinned (at of the forbidden fruit). He lied. The lie continues in our churches today despite that Satan's lie is so simple. Paul says:
Rom. 6:.21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for THE END OF THOSE THINGS IS DEATH
<< Those under this Covenant are bound by the Law. As Christians, we are not.
We are not under the old covenant but we are not living in lawlessness with no commandments to obey. Those commandments which applied before Moses still apply. It's still a sin to murder, steal, lie, commit adultery, etc.
<<As followers of Christ, we are no longer under the Old Covenant of the Law. Instead, we are under the New Covenant of Grace and have entered into Christ’s “rest” (Heb 4:10-12).
So we are in the rest now? So we don't have to obey any laws? We can sin freely?
<< He was literally saying: “I want you to be fully committed to me.”
How can we live fully committed to Jesus? Isn't this by being totally faithful to him?
<< If we have one foot in the Old Covenant, we can’t be fully committed to following Christ under the New Covenant. We have to pick one or the other.
See above. There is still something called "sin" also in the New Covenant, and there are still laws to obey.
<<Paul likens the Law to our “schoolmaster,” but now under Grace, we have graduated. He says in Galatians: “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” (Gal 3:24-25) Yes, the Law teaches us, but it is Grace that saves us.
Paul also says in Galatians:
Gal. 5: A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
and that we must make sure to WALK in the Spirit so that we by doing so avoid sin. Because if we do sin, we will NOT inherit the kingdom of God:
Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
<<The Covenant of Grace is an “unconditional” covenant based on mutual love, like that of the true love of a bridegroom and his bride.
See above. Would a bride tell her groom that he shouldn't expect her to live totally faithful to him, and that he is expected to remain happy with her despite unfaithfulness? Is the normal Christian life a life with sin? And an abnormal Christian life is a life with righteousness?
<< Which kind or relationship would you rather have?––one based on rewards and punishment or one based on mutual love and respect?
What does Jesus himself say?
Jam. 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH.16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Same story. If we love Jesus, we obey him, and a branch can be cut off the vine due to lack of fruit (John 15).
<<< And, when, in all our human frailty, we do stray from the right path, we have the promise that he will forgive us. In such a way, we remain “sealed.”
It sounds very comfortable that the cross we must carry is light as a feather and that we can afford to sin.
<<John tells us that those who fall away didn’t have the truth in them to begin with.
That is not what he said. I'm afraid you're adding to scripture. A person can't fall away from something he was not in, in the first place. Note v. 6, that shows that we lie to ourselves if we walk in darkness (if we sin). The condition for salvation is thus that we walk in the light (we obey the Spirit and avoid sin).
<<Once we give our heart to Him, He holds us securely under the promise of His Grace “unto the day of redemption.”
Feels good to know that we can afford to sin (just like Satan says) and still be saved.
<<No, the cleansing of our souls does not come through the righteousness of our works.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:35 But IN EVERY NATION HE THAT FEARETH HIM, AND WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS, IS ACCEPTED BY HIM.
1 Peter 4:18 And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and SINNER? <<When we ask the Lord into our hearts and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell in us, we are locked, loaded, and “sealed” unto the day the Lord returns and redeems us for His own.
That is not what the Bible says.
<< Thus, we can have confidence in Christ’s promise that we won’t lose our salvation.
Christ has a totally different teaching than you. He said to his saved disciples:
Matt. 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
GBU
LikeLike
Since you believe that the Spirit’s seal is unbreakble and that salvation is unconditional then allow me to propose this scenario to you directly. If you were forced to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast, would you take it? That seems like a ridiculous question but I think it highlights the heart of this matter. Your options are:
Yes, you would take it because as a believer you are sealed and secure in your salvation and can never lose it. This option however goes against what Scripture teaches happens to anyone who accepts the mark.
No, don’t take it because of the consequences spelled out in Rev 14. This option nullifies your belief that you are permanently sealed and can never lose your salvation.
Yes, take it but it would mean that you were never a believer in the first place. This option calls into question your present salvific status which I imagine would be unsettling to you as I’m sure you consider yourself to be a believer.
And if you answer that the question is irrelevant by claiming that the saints aren’t around on the earth at that time because they are all raptured to heaven, do not neglect to notice Rev 14:12 “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.” Whether these are the church-age saints or the tribulation saints is subject to another debate but the fact remains the saints are referenced in this context and are admonished to endure, obey and remain faithful to Jesus rather than worship the beast and accept the mark.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Excellent example!
LikeLike
Actually Evan, your scenario is not a scriptually valid one. According to Revelation, taking or not taking the mark of the beast is not a conditional request from the Lord. He gives us no choices in this particular instance. Instead, it is a specific action taken by each individual in the End Times that will separate out the “sheep” who hear Jesus’ voice and have the indwelling Holy Spirit (the saved) from the “goats” who don’t (the unsaved) for the one last, final time in the history of this world.
As you know in Revelation, the Lord admonishes (commands) us as Christians not to take the mark. Thus, there is only one decision to make in the days when this happens. It will be automatic for us, for it is now in our spiritual “DNA” so to speak to reject it.
Therefore, as a Christian, I would never take the mark of the beast. The Lord will be there with me all the way to insure that I do not. Taking the mark of the beast is not something a true follower of Christ would do. When we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, He guides us in all things, including this instance. For the very reason that we as true Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit and are sealed unto the day of redemption is why we will not take the mark.
Thus, the answer to your question is this: There are no alternative options for the true follower of Christ regarding the mark of the beast. Unlike our decision concerning salvation as to whether we accept or reject the free gift of grace, once we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, we do not have a choice to take or not take the mark. We simply won’t do it. The Lord clearly allows no conditional options here.
Think of it like flying an airplane either on manual or automatic. When we were still unsaved, we still worked the controls of our spiritual “airplane” manually. But, once we received the indwelling Holy Spirit, the Lord has set certain specific tasks to His automatic pilot for our eternal safety. Taking the mark of the beast is one of them. If we are true Christians, we will “automatically” not take the mark of the beast, for we “chose” to turn over our controls to Christ when “first we did believe.”
FYI: I do not believe in pre-tribulation. And, yes, that is another debate entirely.
Question: Are you Seventh Day Adventist?
LikeLike
Quote: “The moment a person is born again that person is already glorified in God’s eyes! Rom 8:30.”
That verse is often cited by those who adhere to eternal security citing what appears to be an unbreakable chain of justification/salvation. Those who God predestined, he called, he justified and he also glorified – all in the past tense – so it seems like a “done deal.” This golden chain of salvation at first glance appears to support the belief that those whom the Father predestined/chose will in fact be glorified – no exceptions. However if it can be demonstrated that any of the “links” in this chain of salvation can be broken, then salvation is not so secure after all – even for the elect. Note the word called/kaleo in v.30. It is the same Greek word found in Gal 1:6. In this verse Paul marvels at the fact that some Galatians despite being “kaleo” are deserting Christ and turning to follow another gospel. If kaleo/called refers to the elect in Rom 8:30 then it also refers to the elect in Gal 1:6. These Galatians who were called by grace, were regenerate believers who were apostatizing from the faith and following another gospel. One cannot desert Christ unless one was first loyal to Christ. One cannot turn to follow another gospel unless one was first followed the true gospel. Despite being called by the Father – these Galatians did not persevere and instead fell away. Therefore the linear chain of progression leading to salvation in Rom 8:30 does not by Paul’s own witness in Gal 1:6 demonstrate any assurance of glorification.
LikeLike
Excellent argument!
/Annika
LikeLiked by 1 person
Evan,
Jesus said: “…For many are called, but few are chosen (Mat 22:14). Just because one is “called” does not mean he or she accepts the call and receives the grace of salvation. As indicated in this Bible passage from Matthew, the majority step up to the door of Christ, but do not enter in and thus are never saved.
You might say that those “called” are in training. Sadly, the majority quit and don’t complete their training to receive their “graduation certificate” of salvation. There are many that have the outward appearance but are not truly saved.
Still, it is not up to us to judge, for we can’t know the heart. That is only for Jesus. But, we do have a hint. Jesus said we will “know them by their fruits.” Not works, mind you, but their “fruits” (Mat 7:20).That is, what they produce.
Also, “Falling from grace” does not mean losing one’s eternal salvation. The terms are not synonymous.
LikeLike
Hey there
<<According to Revelation, taking or not taking the mark of the beast is not a conditional request from the Lord. He gives us no choices in this particular instance. Instead, it is a specific action taken by each individual in the End Times that will separate out the "sheep" who hear Jesus' voice and have the indwelling Holy Spirit (the saved) from the "goats" who don't (the unsaved) for the one last, final time in the history of this world.
The sheep and the goats are sheep and goats depending on their choices and actions. It’s about giving people something to eat or drink, providing clothes, visiting them in prison, etc – it’s about DOING righteousness. In a similar matter there is a clear choice involved when it comes to the mark of the beast. We are WARNED not to take this mark, rather than simply being informed who will or will not take it.
Rev. 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If ANY MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God—11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and WHOSOEVER RECEIVETH the mark of his name.12 Here is the PATIENCE of the saints: here are they that KEEP the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Here we can also see the choices and actions involved by those who have not taken the mark:
Rev. 20:And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which HAD NOT WORSHIPPED the beast, neither his image, neither had RECEIVED his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
There is not a sign anywhere that there was no choice involved when it comes to this mark, and that we can safely expect that God will automatically arrange things for us without our participation. God wouldn’t command something we couldn’t choose to obey. If there were no options involved for us when it comes to the mark of the beast, I wonder why the Bible authors forgot to mention that?
Taking the mark is not something a true follower of God really should not do, but neither is murder, adultery, and lies. King David did all of that and he was considered to be a man of God’s own heart.
<<When we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, He guides us in all things, including this instance.
So does this mean that all Christian are automatically led by the holy Spirit and never ever sin? I would assume you would say no. So why do you use the holy Spirit here as a guarantee that we will not choose to take the mark of the beast? Apparently Christians don’t automatically obey the holy Spirit at other times. The key to avoid sin is to obey the holy Spirit. He will not do it for us.
<<But, once we received the indwelling Holy Spirit, the Lord has set certain specific tasks to His automatic pilot for our eternal safety. Taking the mark of the beast is one of them.
So will the holy Spirit automatically make sure we fly our plane as we should? Again, does this mean we are guaranteed to never sin again since the holy Spirit is indirectly flying our plane?
<<Jesus said: "…For many are called, but few are chosen (Mat 22:14). Just because one is "called" does not mean he or she accepts the call and receives the grace of salvation.
When it comes to this parable, those who were called “chosen” were those who did accept the call and also decided to go to the wedding party – in proper clothing. I agree with the idea that “all” are in fact called in the sense that all are invited to go to the wedding party. People who had their names on the guest list decided not to go ….
<<Jesus said we will "know them by their fruits." Not works, mind you, but their "fruits" (Mat 7:20).That is, what they produce.
What is the difference between fruit and works?
<<Also, "Falling from grace" does not mean losing one's eternal salvation.
If you fall from grace, you’re no longer a child of God. You can of course be a child of God yet again by repenting and start following Jesus, but if you don’t carry your cross you’re not worthy to be a disciple of Jesus.
GBU
LikeLike
Cognitive dissonance is a great hurdle to overcome which prevents many people from examining their own cherished beliefs. Your blog is one of the few I’ve come across which accurately describes the gospel message and what salvation entails. May God continue to bless your endeavors.
LikeLike
Thanks for your kind words, and if you haven’t started a blog already you should 🙂 Or at least save your writings.
LikeLike
Hi Annika – in discussing these matters with Calvinists, I’ve found that people tend to not change their minds once they think they’ve learned something despite scriptural evidence to the contrary. For some reason instead of considering the possibility that one might be incorrect in their particular theology and open to correction and change (since we’re all fallible creatures), they instead remain intractable – no matter what. I can empathize with this as my seminary professors were all Reformed in their theology so I took it for granted that what they taught me was scripturally accurate. Only later on, after years of study on my own, did I come to my own conclusion that what I was taught was not reflective of what the scriptures actually teach. My professors were sincere men of God but sincerely wrong. I don’t blame them as I think Satan has blinded the church from teaching spiritual truth so as to continue deceiving the flock. Once a paradigm is established it is difficult to take off the blinders as one does not even realize that they are on! It literally took me several years to unlearn what I thought I had already correctly learned which is more difficult than learning doctrine correctly the first time around. Although I don’t regret attending seminary, I could have saved a lot of money and personal sacrifice if I had not done so. 🙂 In the end, the Holy Spirit is the best teacher and I am thankful that He has had much patience with me.
In response to Scott In terms of tampering with God’s seal, I think Paul makes it clear that the seal of God is only as good as long as believers remain obedient:
“But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this SEAL: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord DEPART FROM INEQUITY” (2 Tim 2:19).
Being sealed is contingent upon believers not tampering with the seal by not engaging in inequity. Believers who instead choose to engage in habitual sin tamper and break God’s seal.
LikeLike
Evan,
I really don’t understand what it is in Calvinism that makes it so appealing to people.
I regret to hear that you’ve gone to a “reformed” seminary (or at least where the professors happened to be reformed). It actually makes sense to attend reformed Bible school if the aim is to learn how to highlight the most “important” verses and use them as a filter, read verses in a vacuum, twist scriptures, ignore certain verses, etc. In order to get the calvinistic picture, you would actually need to work pretty hard to make the Bible conform to it and this is something that a reformed seminary can help us with. But as you say, afterwards it will take quite some time to unlearn all that calvinistic stuff to get back to the plain teaching of the Bible.
It’s good to know that there are people who have escaped Calvinism, and just this week I read a nice testimony from Leighton Flowers. I include it here:
————————–
. Read this encouraging note I received today from yet another former Calvinistic pastor:
Dr. Flowers,
I have a bit of a bone to pick with you. You have put me in quite a quandary. I am a long time pastor at a “Calvinistic” Baptist church and I have been a Calvinist most of my life. About a year ago one of my church members, who is close with my wife, kept hounding her to listen to your podcast until finally she did. After a few months of listening to you she became thoroughly convinced that Calvinism was wrong. She then began insisting that I listen to your podcast with her. I refused. I told her you were deceiving her and that she should stop listening to you. We had many fights about this until finally she just stopped talking about it (which I found out later was advice you gave her).
I had all but forgotten about it until my birthday came around. She gave me several gifts, one of which was your book, The Potter’s Promise. She promised me that if I would read your book with an open mind then she would never bring this issue up again. I reluctantly agreed just to shut her up.
I finished reading your book last week which led me to binge on your podcast over the last 6 days. Wow. You have completely messed up my world! I cannot believe that I am even writing you this letter right now. I would have never dreamed that your book would have convinced me to recant Calvinism, but it has. I cannot believe I have not seen this before. I mean I have questioned some of the typical issues people have against Calvinism but I have always been quite certain the TULIP Soteriology was correct. I am even more certain now that it isn’t!
So, what am I supposed to do now? Resign my church? Recant publicly? Go back and try to fix everyone I misguided over the 16 years of my preaching ministry? See how you’ve put me in quite a quandary? Don’t get me wrong, I’m eternally grateful for helping me see this error, but I am quite perplexed as to what to do now. It’s like I’m seeing the Bible in a whole new light and I so badly want to start teaching my fellowship what I’ve been learning but, on the other hand, I don’t want to split the church or cause division among the brethren.
So, I guess I’m writing you for two reasons. One to thank you for your work and influence in our lives and also to ask you your advice as to how I should proceed from here? Is this something you have seen before? What have others in my situation done and could you even point me to them so I can talk about it with a brother who has been through this?
Thank you for your time and prayers!
(It was requested that I not share his name)
—————————————–
LikeLike
Any scripture on the tampering of God’s seal?
LikeLike
Sure, we can absolutely destroy our seal. Examples:
1 Tim. 1:19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2 Pet. 3:as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
LikeLike
If God tells us “sealed unto the day of redemption”…why not believe Him?
LikeLike
Hey Scott
As I wrote in the post: Based on the Greek text it can be translated “by whom you were sealed FOR the day of redemption”.
The text does not say “sealed unconditionally all the way UNTIL the day of redemption no matter our conduct”. There is nothing that suggests that a seal can absolutely not be tampered with! When someone places a seal on something – like the one in the picture here to the left – he doesn’t do this with the idea that no one can remove the seal but to show a unique mark and/or ownership of something. The aim, and the sincere hope, might very well be to see the seal untouched until there is a proper time to remove it, but there is no guarantee that it will remain as it is until that day.
GBU
LikeLike
My 2 cents worth. I think it is reasonable to say that it is essential to define faith in order to comprehend what it means to be saved through faith. No one here would argue that belief is necessary for saving faith as Jn 3:16 testifies to. While salvation is a position, it is a position that can be lost. Jn 3:16 specifically states that belief is necessary but the Greek word for belief in this verse is pisteuōn which is a present tense verb. Thus eternal life is only promised to those who are continuing to believe. Eternal life is not a position that is gained solely by a decision of belief made in the past but the present tense verb in the Greek indicates that salvation is obtained by whoever is “believing” in Him. One must go on believing in order to have eternal life which indicates that saving faith is marked by perseverance in belief – which is a state of being. If a person for whatever reason ceases to believe, his/her salvific position is forfeited. Also in this verse the word “have” is echē which is also a present tense verb. This verse more accurately translated should thus read: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that everyone who goes on believing in Him should not perish, but goes on having eternal life.” Thus salvation is a position but it is also a state. If a believer is no longer in a state of abiding in Christ by continuing to presently believe, according to Jn 3:16 he cannot be said to be presently having eternal life. Repentance and restoration to the faith is required.
LikeLike
Hey Evan
You said (among other good stuff) “If a believer is no longer in a state of abiding in Christ by continuing to presently believe, according to Jn 3:16 he cannot be said to be presently having eternal life. ” That is so true. Hope you have saved what you’ve written here so that you can easily copy and paste it to calvinists :). I pray people will read and understand the meaning of repentance and living a holy life. Time is short!
GBU
LikeLike
Your requirements would make the numerous Salvation through faith verses false and/or inaccurate (which we know is not the case). Another thing to note is that many people combine Salvation and living the spiritual life as one when in reality they are separate. Salvation is a position and spirituality is state.
LikeLike
Scott
No, it’s still true that we are saved through faith (and not by still obeying the 613 Jewish laws) but faith without works is dead. One sin is enough to be a guilty sinner, and this means that we need someone with authority who can cleanse us from our sins.
I fear you might have a gnostic outlook on life. We are saved IF we are holy, and we can only be holy if we are cleansed and live holy lives. If we again become filthy through sin, we are unholy and need to repent. If we mix faith and sin, we have not truly repented.
LikeLike
I have found that those who believe in eternal security rarely, if ever, change their position when debating this matter and end up agreeing to disagree. However when I propose this scenario to them and ask how they would answer they tend to avoid answering because it demonstrates in a practical manner that their position may be an untenable one. If they do answer, they respond by saying what someone else might do – not what they might do. Thus it is important to ask what the person – himself/herself – would personally do. The scenario is:
If Jesus does not return before the great tribulation and you find yourself in the position of having to decide whether or not to take the mark of the beast, would YOU take the mark?
As far as I know, they have 3 possible options:
1. Yes, take the mark because I’m eternally secure. This response indicates that the person is at least consistent in their belief. However I’ve found no one responding in this manner because they know that this affirmative response directly contradicts the plain warning given in Rev 14:9-11.
2. No, don’t take the mark because if I do it would demonstrate that I was never a believer to begin with. This option puts to rest the notion that those who continue to sin or no longer believe were never believers in the first place. The person knows that he/she is a genuine believer yet at the same time has to acknowledge the consequences of his/her losing salvation upon taking the mark. It puts them in a quandary because they would never consider themselves to be unbelievers who fall away from the faith. It demonstrates in a practical manner that they as regenerate believers can indeed lose their secure position if they take the mark. They can no longer use the excuse that persons who fall away from the faith never really believed.
3. No, don’t take the mark because if I do I’m condemned to the lake of fire. If this option is taken, a person who adheres to eternal security acknowledges that the warning of taking the mark applies to him/her personally and the doctrine of eternal security is no longer a valid belief.
A person who believes in the pre-trib rapture might protest and claim that this is not valid and is only a hypothetical example since the church is raptured before the great tribulation. However Rev 14:12 notes that the saints are still present at the time when the mark is presented. Whether this is the entire church or only tribulation saints is another matter for discussion. The main point is that v.12 commands the saints to persevere and be patient by keeping God’s commandments and their faith. Taking the mark would demonstrate that the saint has not kept the commandments and his/her faith.
LikeLike
Hey Evan
That was a brilliant example of the Calvinists’ dilemma, including those who are only OSAS believers. The Bible is replete with warnings to believers so of course we are not exempt from any dangers if we don’t hold on to the vine tree. If believers could never fall away, the devil is wasting his time roaming around the earth trying to deceive us.
Many blessings
LikeLike
The thief simply believed in Jesus Christ through faith and Eternal Life was given. Awesome thought to know that someone can be saved even though they have rejected God most of their life…That’s Grace!
LikeLike
Yes, the thief had faith in Jesus. Faith combined with sin won’t save, but if we confess our sins and repent then we will be cleansed from our sins and become holy. This is what happened with the thief.
Amen, even if someone has rejected God all of his life, he can still be cleansed in a second.
LikeLike
David is right…we don’t save ourselves. Take the thief on the cross example…He lived a life full of sin and then was saved just before he died. Pretty sure that Salvation didn’t depend on him or his life that he lived.
LikeLike
Hey Scott
Thanks for writing. No one has claimed that we can save ourselves. There are conditions for salvation, however, and even the thief on the cross confessed his sins, repented and trusted in Jesus. Those are things that WE must do. Jesus said: “REPENT, for the kingdom of God is at hand”.
LikeLike
Be careful bro! We do not save ourselves! We do not keep ourselves saved! We have or have not been sealed and there is nothing we can do to make or break a seal.
This blog premise borders on blasphemy!
LikeLike
David, you’re teaching a license to sin. If there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation, we can afford to sin. Just like Satan wants us to.
Choosing to stay faithful to Jesus is not “saving ourselves”. Is it really blasphemy to teach that we must be faithful to our Lord?
Satan’s teaching is “Ye shalt not surely die”. He lied.
LikeLike
if you look up the word seal it is the same word that is used in the old testament when God himself sealed the the door to the ark , and in the Greek the would sealed means safe, securied and its the type of sealed like on a birth certificate
LikeLike
Hi Cliff
The words are not the same since they are in Greek and Hebrew respectively (you mention both). I did give examples of “sealed” also in the OT, and it doesn’t necessarily mean something unbreakable. In the NT it can mean “marked” as I wrote, and as born again Christians with the holy Spirit, we are indeed a peculiar people and marked.But sinning continues to cause spiritual death.
GBU
LikeLike
One can also make the case that the word ”seal” does not automatically mean that something is unbreakable. Using a NT example, the seals in the book of Revelation are broken open indicating that they are not permanent seals. Mt 27:66 describes that the Romans sealed Jesus’ tomb; yet we know that the seal was broken upon Jesus’ resurrection. Similarly, a believer being sealed does not guarantee permanence as disobedience which grieves the Holy Spirit can result in spiritual death.
LikeLike
Exactly, Evan.
Great comment. Since a seal doesn’t prevent us from sinning, it means that we can still choose to turn back to the world and risk spiritual death due to sin. We must still take the responsibility for our actions.
LikeLike
IF THE HOLY SPIRIT SEALS THE BELIEVER **FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION** .. THE BELIEVER IS ETERNALLY SEALED NO MATTER WHAT*… AND TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE SAYS THAT ONE THINKS SATAN IS STRONGER THAN GOD. WHICH IS NOT TRUE. NO ONE CAN DO ANYTHING TO MAKE CHRIST GO BACK ON HIS PROMISES. ONCE A BELIEVER IS SAVED.. HE OR SHE IS SAVED FOREVER. THATS WHY ITS CALLED *EVERLASTING-LIFE* & *ETERNAL-LIFE*.. IF ITS NOT ETERNAL THEN, THAT MAKES GOD A LIAR. IF A “BELIEVER” IS TRUSTING IN HIS OR HER WORKS AND/OR CONDUCT IN ANY WAY… THEN, THAT BELIEVER IS NOT A BELIEVER ON JESUS CHRIST ALONE… AND IS SEEKING JUSTIFICATION BY WORKS. WE MUST BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST ALONE.. AND HIS FINISHED WORK UPON CALVARYS CROSS. THE BURDEN OF ONES SALVATION IS UPON CHRIST.. NOT THE BELIEVER. GOD BLESS.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hello Missy
Why are you screaming? Capital letters = Screaming + very difficult to read.
And why didn’t you read the article? I explained in the article why it’s not possible to understand “sealed” as a license to sin the way you do. If we are saved no matter what, then we have indeed a license to sin – which the Bible doesn’t teach. Are we saved even if we sin? If yes, doesn’t this mean that Satan was right all along for suggesting that sinning will not cause death?
Can we not overcome sin here and now? Is Satan’s power stronger than God’s? Is it God’s responsibility to make sure we avoid sin, or is it our responsibility?
Eternal life is obviously eternal, but we are not there yet. Only those Christians who will endure to the end will be saved and get eternal life.
What does the Bible say about justification by works? Let’s see:
Ja 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and not by faith only.
God bless
LikeLike
I apologize for jumping in here, but it would help to address the specific areas where we as Christians differ and examine pertinent scripture that moves the discussion forward. Missy probably seems to be “screaming” because you appear not to be listening. Reading your articles on more of the same will not further the discussion. In your own way, you are shouting at her by continually repeating what you say and not addressing Missy’s very logical points.
You keep going back to Jam 2:24. It would help to know where you are coming from on this? If I’m hearing you right, are you stating here based on this one scripture that you believe we as Christians are to be justified by our works in order to attain salvation? You do know the Apostle Paul, according to all his writings, would vehemently disagree with you, yes? Why? Because that simply is not scriptural. And, I would imagine the Apostle James would as well.
Keep in mind out of the 27 books of the New Testament, Paul wrote at least 13, and some count Hebrews as one of his works. James, the brother of Jesus wrote just one. Now, all the books of the Bible are the inspired word of God. All come from God. Therefore, one book is not less worthy than the other. But, I am pointing this out because Paul simply by the magnitude of his writings gave us much more material to make in-depth evaluations on what he was saying, for he says it many times in many ways. On the other hand, we only have one book by James, giving us much less material to quantify his meaning.
If we study their texts, however, we can see they don’t really contradict one another. The two men are talking about two different ends of the same subject. Paul is telling us it is through “faith alone” that we receive our salvation.Our salvation has nothing to do with our own self-righteousness or our works. In Romans 3:28, Paul reiterates this: “…we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
On the other hand, James is saying that after it is all said and done, once we have received salvation through faith, then there should be evidence of that in our works, for our whole purpose becomes to further the Kingdom of God. We are not to just sit on our hands and do nothing after we are saved. Thus, James is not talking about our works making us righteous or saving us.He is talking about our works as “evidence” of our faith.
Paul is telling us how we receive salvation through grace–“not by works lest any man should boast.” James is telling us what to do with the salvation once we receive it. Neither is saying anything about “losing” our salvation, and neither contradicts one another. Hope this helps.
LikeLike
Hello there
I comment below as I go through the text.
<<You keep going back to Jam 2:24. It would help to know where you are coming from on this? If I’m hearing you right, are you stating here based on this one scripture that you believe we as Christians are to be justified by our works in order to attain salvation?
The message is clear: we are not saved by faith alone but justified by works. Faith alone will not save and works alone will not save. James provides examples of holy living.
<<You do know the Apostle Paul, according to all his writings, would vehemently disagree with you, yes? Why?
No, Paul disagrees with Satan’s “once saved always saved” teaching and rather teaches that sin still leads to death. Paul spends a lot of time trying to get the Jews to understand that they are no longer under the old testament with the multiple ceremonial laws such as circumcision, but Paul in no way teaches lawlessness and that we have no more laws to obey. Those laws that have applied since Adam still apply. Example:
1 Cor. 6:9 KNOW YE NOT THAT THE UNRIGHTEOUS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor. 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So RUN, THAT YE MAY OBTAIN.25 And every man that STRIVETH for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we anincorruptible.26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY.
1 Cor 15:34 Awake to RIGHTEOUSNESS, and SIN NOT; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame!
<<Because that simply is not scriptural. And, I would imagine the Apostle James would as well.
Of course James agrees with his own teachings.
<< But, I am pointing this out because Paul simply by the magnitude of his writings gave us much more material to make in-depth evaluations on what he was saying, for he says it many times in many ways.
Yes, Paul (and James) can be trusted and they both teach that sin leads to death also for Christians. We are either sinners or saints, and a sinning Christian is therefore an oxymoron. More of Paul:
Galatians 6:7 BE NOT DECEIVED; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH, that shall he also REAP. 8 For HE THAT SOWETH TO HIS FLESH SHALL OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace.—13 For IF YE LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YE SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall LIVE.
<< Paul is telling us it is through “faith alone” that we receive our salvation.
No, he doesn’t. See above. He agrees with James that faith alone is death and that we are not saved by faith alone.
<<Our salvation has nothing to do with our own self-righteousness or our works
Is it self righteous to live a holy life and be faithful to Jesus? Hopefully this is not considered something bad. Again, we are not righteous unless we live a righteous life. We can’t hide behind Jesus and pretend that God the Father doesn’t see our sins but only the blood of Jesus. Again, Paul lists some sins and says “THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD”. Christians are not exempted. Unless we avoid sins, we will not inherit the kingdom of God.
<<. In Romans 3:28, Paul reiterates this: “…we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
Is he saying that “even if a Christian steals, lies and commits adultery, he is still justified”? No, again, Paul is talking to the Jews and tries to get them to understand that they are not saved only because they are born Jews and live under the Mosaic laws with all the 613 detailed laws. “Law” can be understood slightly different, sometimes depending on if we are talking about the OT, the NT, and most importantly depending on context. The jews here would of course understand Paul to mean the Jewish law since the subject is circumcision. Paul says in the previous chapter:
Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in GOD’s SIGHT, but it is those who OBEY THE LAW who will be declared RIGHTEOUS. —
<< there should be evidence of that in our works
So this work is necessary? Must this be seen in a Christian’s life? If yes, then James and Paul are right after all for teaching that we are not saved by faith alone and that we are justified by works.
<< Thus, James is not talking about our works making us righteous or saving us.He is talking about our works as “evidence” of our faith.
What’s the difference compared to what I’m saying? If the evidence of works is a required mark, then it’s required for salvation.
<<Paul is telling us how we receive salvation through grace–“not by works lest any man should boast.” James is telling us what to do with the salvation once we receive it. Neither is saying anything about “losing” our salvation, and neither contradicts one another.
Both are teaching that we can lose our salvation, and none of them teaches that we are unconditionally once saved always saved. Do read Paul’s serious warning:
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of SIN UNTO DEATH, or of obedience unto righteousness?—21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of THOSE THINGS IS DEATH.22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
GBU
LikeLike
Thank you so much for your article and your responses to those who commented here. Many will fall away and it seems a number of them have commented here as in the last days they will not put up with sound teaching.
Thank you reading Gods word and believing God as Abraham did and as he asks us to do!
Thank you for standing for the Lord!
Jack Mitchell
LikeLike
Thanks brother
Time is short and we live on this planet temporarily. It’s best to be prepared and to realize that Jesus warned christians from falling away.
God bless you
LikeLike
I agree with your article, and your views on faith and works and salvation. However, I am sure that it is a gross oversimplificatiion to say that Paul’s “negative” statements are about the Law of Moses not the “Moral Law.” There are these same “negative” statements about the Law applied to the “Moral Laws”: Rom. 7:7; 2Cor. 3; 1Tim. 1:8-11. So I am sure that this understanding is an oversimplification of what Paul was really saying, clearly, and therefore error.
LikeLike
Hey there and thanks for your message.
We know of Paul’s opinion about the law of Moses – like the many Jewish ceremonial laws that are no longer required for being considered right before God. Circumcision should therefore not be taught as a requirement – an oft mentioned theme. The law of Moses was God’s law (first brought to the Jews during Exodus), and “the law of love” (Rom. 13:8-10,Gal. 5:14, Mark 12:30-31, Luke 10:26-28) is also God’s law – his commandments. I wouldn’t say that it’s certain that Paul is absolutely referring to the law of Moses each time he used the term “law”, but the context is a help.
GBU
LikeLike
John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should NOT PERISH, but have *EVERLASTING life*.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Amen, and what happens if we truly believe him and love him?
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
LikeLike
But did John 3:16 say “whosoever believeth in Him *AND* keep His commandments should not perish, but have everlasting life”???? No, it said whosoever *BELIEVETH*. Keeping the commandments or the law does not justify anyone. If you say so, then you are adding works to salvation. Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 say differently.
We are are a *PURCHASED POSSESION*:
Ephesians 1:11-14 — In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being *predestinated* according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first *trusted in Christ*. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye *believed*, ye were *SEALED* WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE, WHICH IS THE* EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE* *UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION*, unto the praise of his glory.
We are a purchased possession. The Holy Spirit is sealed in us UNTIL the day of our redemption. Not until we sin… Also, our salvation was PREDESTINED. So, if we’re saved, and our salvation was PREDESTINED, how do we lose salvation? How can the Holy Spirit become unsealed from a believer if it was predestined for us TO be saved and SEALED?
LikeLike
Hello Brandon
<<But did John 3:16 say "whosoever believeth in Him *AND* keep His commandments should not perish, but have everlasting life"????
John 3:16 is one verse in the Bible. There are other verses in the Bible and many of them give further details. If you truly BELIEVE in Jesus and if you truly LOVE him, you obey his commandments. If you don't obey the commandments it shows that you don't really love him above everything else.
<< Keeping the commandments or the law does not justify anyone. If you say so, then you are adding works to salvation.
Ja. 2:24 24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
<<Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 say differently.
None of those passages claim that we can be saved without works. We don't earn salvation, we can't be saved without Jesus, and we can't be saved by works alone or by faith alone.
<<We are are a *PURCHASED POSSESION*:
People who are bought can still destructed:
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that BOUGHT THEM, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
<<Ephesians 1:11-14 ye were *SEALED* WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE,
This begs the question if you even read the article under which you are writing? A seal can mean "marked". A seal can be broken.
<<The Holy Spirit is sealed in us UNTIL the day of our redemption.
Did you read the article? If you did, you would notice my point that it doesn't say "UNTIL" but "UNTO".
<<Also, our salvation was PREDESTINED.
Actually, it doesn't say that. It was something you added. IF our salvation was predestined, then GOD must be blamed when people refuse to believe in him. Did they have a choice?
<<So, if we're saved, and our salvation was PREDESTINED, how do we lose salvation?
False premise since our salvation was not predestined. We lose our salvation if we sin, just like the Bible says. It's Satan who says that we will NOT die if we sin. Jesus says the opposite. And a person can be cut off from the vine due to lack of fruit.
<<How can the Holy Spirit become unsealed from a believer if it was predestined for us TO be saved and SEALED?
Read the article.
GBU
LikeLike
You said that the Bible doesn’t say that our salvation wasn’t predestined:
“Actually, it doesn’t say that. It was something you added. IF our salvation was predestined, then GOD must be blamed when people refuse to believe in him. Did they have a choice?”
Ephesians 1:11 says differently:
11 — In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being *PREDESTINATED* according to the purpose of HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:
Since I have proven that salvation IS predestined and that I haven’t added ANYTHING, you now have to answer the questions about whether we can lose our salvation and whether or not we can become unsealed when it was all predestined… This also proves that “People who are bought can still destructed:” is NOT true UNLESS you mean that they can PHYSICALLY die. A saved person’s ETERNAL security is NOT taken away from them.
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“None of those passages claim that we can be saved without works”
Romans 4:5 — But to him that *WORKETH NOT*, but *BELIEVETH ON HIM* that justifieth the ungodly, *HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS*.
Ephesians 2:8-9 — For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: *NOT OF WORKS*, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5-7 — Not by *WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS* which we have done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his *GRACE*, we should be made heirs according to the hope of *ETERNAL LIFE*.
So again, works don’t save AND you don’t NEED them to be justified. You cannot claim that a person has to work for their salvation to be saved and then turn around and say that salvation isn’t of ourselves. As stated in Romans 4:5, a believer doesn’t need to “work”. He only needs FAITH to be JUSTIFIED.
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
Of course most go to James 2:18-26 to defend faith and works salvation, but then forget that a man is justified by faith and works in MAN’S eyes:
James 2:18 — Yea, A *MAN* MAY SAY, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“Did you read the article? If you did, you would notice my point that it doesn’t say “UNTIL” but “UNTO”.”
Did you read Ephesians 1:11-14 (specifically verse 14)? Instead of saying:
“*UNTO* the redemption of the purchased possession”,
this verse(s) actually says:
“*UNTIL* the redemption of the purchased possession” (I used the KJV for all Scripture):
Ephesians 1:11-14 — In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance *UNTIL* the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Now you can’t say that we aren’t sealed “UNTIL” our redemption because Ephesians 1:14 says otherwise.
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
John 3:16 says that WHOSOEVER *BELIEVETH* IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. It did NOT say believe in Him *AND* keep His commandments (although a Christian SHOULD keep His commandments). These are the 2 commandments which sum up the law and the prophets:
Matthew 22:37-40 — Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt *love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind*. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, * Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.*
God bless you!!!
LikeLike
Hey Brandon
<<11 — In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being *PREDESTINATED* according to the purpose of HIM WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:
Where does it say that individuals are predestined to salvation? It doesn't. Do read my articles about Eph 1 which is about a corporate election. From the creation of the world it was decided and predestined that the body of Christ (the church) will get an inheritance with Jesus. The body of Christ WILL get to heaven. Anyone can join the bus going to heaven.
<<Since I have proven that salvation IS predestined and that I haven't added ANYTHING,
Sorry you didn't prove it. IF you did prove it, you're blaming God for all people that are lost.
<<you now have to answer the questions about whether we can lose our salvation and whether or not we can become unsealed when it was all predestined…
I already did. Did you do your homework by reading the article under which you are writing? There you will see that "sealed" can mean "marked", and that it can be broken. A branch can be cut off from the vine and thrown in the fire. If you deny Jesus, he will deny you. If you take the mark of the beast, you're lost, etc.
<<This also proves that "People who are bought can still destructed:" is NOT true UNLESS you mean that they can PHYSICALLY die.
Did you read the verse where I proved it, or do you always ignore verses that you don't agree with?
<<Romans 4:5 — But to him that *WORKETH NOT*, but *BELIEVETH ON HIM* that justifieth the ungodly, *HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS*.
Paul is talking about Jewish law. He is often trying to get the Jews to understand that the requirement is to believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, and a new era has come. They are not bound by the law of MOSE and the 613 laws, but they are certainly not free from the moral law which has applied every since Adam. Do read my article about this verse as well. Verses should not be read in a vacuum, and we don't get to ignore verses we don't like. Paul is not saying that we are now free to murder, steal and lie and still be saved. He doesn't agree with Satan who claims that we won't die.
<<
Ephesians 2:8-9 — For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: *NOT OF WORKS*, lest any man should boast.
We are not saved by the works of the LAW, and we are not saved by faith alone without works of God. I'm able to reconcile the verses in the Bible and you seem to ignore verses you don't like. I take it you don't agree with James, or with Paul who tell us in many places that unrighteousness leads to death?
<<Titus 3:5-7 — Not by *WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS* which we have done,—
Neither this verse disagrees with the idea that faith without works is dead. Or does your Bible not say that faith without works is dead?
<<So again, works don't save
Correct, but you're not saved without works. Not according to the law of God, but we're supposed to be faithful to Jesus according to the new testament.
<< AND you don't NEED them to be justified.
Hmm. James disagrees with you:
Ja 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is JUSTIFIED, and not by faith only.
<<You cannot claim that a person has to work for their salvation to be saved
James was the one claiming that, and the other apostles agree with him. Jesus tells us to cut off body parts if they make us sin, in order to not end up in Gehenna.
<<and then turn around and say that salvation isn't of ourselves.
Works could save us if we did not sin at any time. This doesn't seem to be the case with humanity, and this means the only other option is to saved by faith which means we first need to repent and be cleansed in the blood of Jesus. But it doesn't say "once cleansed always cleansed". If we sin again, we're lost again. And if we don't do any good works, we're lost. Works alone won't save us.
<<As stated in Romans 4:5, a believer doesn't need to "work". He only needs FAITH to be JUSTIFIED.
Rom. 4:5 is talking about the law of Mose, and Ja 2:24 tells us that we are justified by works combined with out faith.
<<Of course most go to James 2:18-26 to defend faith and works salvation, but then forget that a man is justified by faith and works in MAN'S eyes:
That is an often claim, but he is comparing with Abraham and the offering of Isaac where NO MAN was present. (The servant stood behind.) So it was before GOD*S eyes. God even said "Now I know…." when he noticed Abraham willing to offer his son. And James gives examples of works that man might do. Also compare with the sheep and the goats who stood before God, and where God tells them that whatever good works they did, they did for HIM.
<<"I wrote: Did you read the article? If you did, you would notice my point that it doesn't say "UNTIL" but "UNTO"."
I notice you didn't answer this question. Did you read it or not?
<<Did you read Ephesians 1:11-14 (specifically verse 14)?
Yes, I've written an article about it.
<< "*UNTIL* the redemption of the purchased possession" (I used the KJV for all Scripture):
We were talking about Eph. 1:30. You incorrectly wrote "The Holy Spirit is sealed in us UNTIL the day of our redemption", but the Bible nowhere say this. It says UNTO. The day is to be cleansed and marked on, for or unto the day of salvation. It doesn't say "until".
<<Now you can't say that we aren't sealed "UNTIL" our redemption because Ephesians 1:14 says otherwise.
It doesn't say it.
<< John 3:16 says that WHOSOEVER *BELIEVETH* IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. It did NOT say believe in Him *AND* keep His commandments (although a Christian SHOULD keep His commandments). These are the 2 commandments which sum up the law and the prophets:
So you agree with that there are commandments/laws we should obey after all? Make up your mind.
God bless
LikeLike
You said:
“Where does it say that individuals are predestined to salvation?”
You didn’t even pay attention to Ephesians 1:11-14 (I know Ephesians 4:30, not 1:30, said “unto”):
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that YE BELIEVED, ye were SEALED with that HOLY SPIRIT of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance *UNTIL* the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (KJV)
When a person becomes born again they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Is that not true??? That should be common sense! If it is predestined for a person to be sealed with the spirit until (NOT UNTO like Ephesians 4:30 said. This actually says “until”) their redemption, they can’t lose something that God has already PREDESTINED them to have!
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“Paul is talking about Jewish law. He is often trying to get the Jews to understand that the requirement is to believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, and a new era has come. They are not bound by the law of MOSE and the 613 laws, but they are certainly not free from the moral law which has applied every since Adam. Do read my article about this verse as well. Verses should not be read in a vacuum, and we don’t get to ignore verses we don’t like. Paul is not saying that we are now free to murder, steal and lie and still be saved. He doesn’t agree with Satan who claims that we won’t die.”
Romans 4:1-5 — What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? *For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD*. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Where was the Jewish law mentioned???? This is talking about WORKS! Of course a Christian is not free to murder, steal and lie. We are not permitted by God to sin at all and we have no excuses to sin. GOD doesn’t condone ANY sin!
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“We are not saved by the works of the LAW, and we are not saved by faith alone without works of God. I’m able to reconcile the verses in the Bible and you seem to ignore verses you don’t like. I take it you don’t agree with James, or with Paul who tell us in many places that unrighteousness leads to death?”
Ephesians 2:8-9 didn’t say we were saved by the works of the law, it said NOT OF WORKS! (you just added to salvation). Again, James does not teach works + faith salvation. Did you completely ignore James 2:18 which says that a MAN MAY SAY (Yea, a *MAN* may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works). This is a MAN saying that a person needs faith plus works!
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“Titus 3:5-7 — Not by *WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS* which we have done,—”
“Neither this verse disagrees with the idea that faith without works is dead. Or does your Bible not say that faith without works is dead?”
I answered James 2 already. Faith + works justifies in MAN’S eyes. (James 2:18 — Yea, a MAN may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.) Your faith looks dead to MAN!
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“I wrote: Did you read the article? If you did, you would notice my point that it doesn’t say “UNTIL” but “UNTO”.”
“I notice you didn’t answer this question. Did you read it or not?”
Yes, I read the part about the greek not meaning “until” in Ephesians *4*:30, not 1:30… I also countered this with Ephesians 1:14 which doesn’t say the purchased possesion is sealed “unto”, but “until” the day of his redemption! After that, verse 14 continues with “unto the praise of his glory”. This means that we are sealed *UNTIL* our redemption!
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“So you agree with that there are commandments/laws we should obey after all? Make up your mind.”
I actually said that a Christian SHOULD keep Christ’s commandments.
Direct quote from me:
“It did NOT say believe in Him *AND* keep His commandments (although a Christian SHOULD keep His commandments)”
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“But it doesn’t say “once cleansed always cleansed”. If we sin again, we’re lost again. And if we don’t do any good works, we’re lost. Works alone won’t save us.”
So Jesus blood WASN’T enough to wash my sins away???? His work on the cross wasn’t enough to purify me??? I have to do extra to be saved (even though salvation is NOT of myself)???
LikeLike
Hey Brandon
<<You didn’t even pay attention to Ephesians 1:11-14 (I know Ephesians 4:30, not 1:30, said ”unto”):
Those verses don't say that God chooses some individuals for salvation and damns the rest. Did you read what I said about corporate election?
<<When a person becomes born again they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Is that not true???
Yes. Marked, as the special people we are. This doesn't mean that people are not able to choose to NOT obey the spirit. Even king David, a man of God's own heart, chose to sin quite severely for quite some time. We can read in Ezekiel that a person who no longer lives in righteousness will die for it. But anyone can repent of course.
<<If it is predestined for a person to be sealed with the spirit until—-
The verse doesn't phrase it like that. Yes, the body of Christ is predestined to inherit the kingdom, and believers are predestined to get the holy Spirit. That is the plan, and it will take place. The body of Christ WILL enter heaven, and God knew from the start that there will be a group of people who are believers. Anyone can join the body of Christ.
<<Romans 4:1-5 ——-
Paul is making the point that Abraham was righteous and justified without the law of Mose, which was yet in the future. That would be proof of that you can be saved without the law (of Moses). The Jews still believed they had to obey some of all of the 613 laws, but Paul is trying to get them to understand that it's faith in Jesus that is required. And of course, if you believe and love Jesus you obey him. How do we know if we are children of God? If we DO righteousness:
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
James 2 makes it clear that the righteous things we do, they are BEFORE GOD. I made the comparison with the sheep and the goats.
<<Where was the Jewish law mentioned????
"The law" often means the law of Moses. It's shorter.
<<This is talking about WORKS!
Yes works according to the law. The law of Moses. But it's also true that you can't be saved by works (alone), since faith is required that that you're cleansed from your sins. In this way works can't save you. But we can't ignore James (and the other authors) who claim that we will DIE if we sin.
<<Of course a Christian is not free to murder, steal and lie. We are not permitted by God to sin at all and we have no excuses to sin. GOD doesn’t condone ANY sin!
Amen, which means that there are still commandments which we must obey. Keeping the commandments, including treating others like we would like to be treated – would be works. We can't be saved without it according to James, and I believe him.
<<Ephesians 2:8-9 didn’t say we were saved by the works of the law, it said NOT OF WORKS!
And I say amen. See above. Just doing works won't save us. And keep reading also v. 10 (a verse which isn't so popular due to what it says). It says that we must WALK unto good WORKS. What happens if we refuse to do those good works? Still saved? Despite that Jesus himself says that a branch can be cut off the vine due to lack of fruit?
<< Again, James does not teach works + faith salvation.
Yes he does. He says "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only". How much more clear can it get? And he spends the entire chapter explaining that we must DO various things to be saved – showing good fruit. If faith alone saves us, then Satan is saved as well.
<<Did you completely ignore James 2:18 which says that a MAN MAY SAY (Yea, a *MAN* may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works). This is a MAN saying that a person needs faith plus works!
Are you joking with me? That is a strange way to interpret that verse. Read also the verses prior to this verse and after it. The message is clear. The verse before says
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is DEAD, being alone."
A couple of verses later he says:
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
You're making a mistake by reading single verses in a vacuum.
<<”Titus 3:5-7 — Not by *WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS* which we have done,—”
No matter how much good works we're done, we're still not saved if we are not cleansed and if we don't have Jesus.
<< Faith + works justifies in MAN’S eyes.
Not what the Bible says. James point is the exact opposite. People might believe they are decent people and deserve salvation due to their faith and due to not sinning so much, but God required faithfulness and righteousness from us.
<< This means that we are sealed *UNTIL* our redemption!
If you're a christian, you certainly don't lose the spirit.
<I actually said that a Christian SHOULD keep Christ’s commandments.
Oh ok, so it's optional? They should, but should they decide to not obey them, they are still saved and won't die? Just like Satan says?
<<So Jesus blood WASN’T enough to wash my sins away????
Sure, but repentance is required. It doesn't say that you're cleansed even though you live in sin.
<<I have to do extra to be saved (even though salvation is NOT of myself)???
You certainly do have to do extra to be saved. The cross you have to carry isn't light as a feather. Jesus didn't die so that you can sin in peace. We are told that we must endure to the END to be saved.
Do people end up in hell due their failure to not being predestined to heaven but being predestined to hell? If they are predestined to hell from the beginning of the world, can they change this path? If no, God alone must be blamed for all sinners.
GBU
LikeLike
“Those verses don’t say that God chooses some individuals for salvation and damns the rest. Did you read what I said about corporate election?”
Predestined means that God already KNOWS who will be saved. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have EVERLASTING life (John 3:16).
God knows who will be saved and who won’t be!!
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“Faith + works justifies in MAN’S eyes.
Not what the Bible says. James point is the exact opposite. ”
So James 2:18 doesn’t start off saying “Yea, a MAN may say…”?
Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 both make it perfectly clear that we are not saved of works and neither do we have to “work” to stay or be justified…. Saying that Ephesians 2:8-9 was talking about “works of the law” is adding to the word (which Deuteronomy commands NOT to do). It says “NOT OF WORKS”. “Of the law” isn’t mentioned afterward…..
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“You certainly do have to do extra to be saved.”
Then salvation isn’t only of God. Salvation is of myself to since I have to do extra… (Ephesians 2:8 — For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:)
Now that we have established that there is NOTHING we can do to justify ourselves before God, was Jesus’ blood ENOUGH to WASH my sins away? Was His WORK ON THE CROSS *ENOUGH* to save, or is salvation of ourselves too since we have to do extra?
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“If you’re a christian, you certainly don’t lose the spirit.:”
That’s what I’ve been trying to say the ENTIRE TIME! I’ve BEEN trying to tell you that we’re a purchased possession and used Ephesians 1:11-14, which says that the Holy Spirit is the EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE! Our eternal security is GUARANTEED! Read Ephesians 1:13-14:
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED with that HOLY SPIRIT of promise, Which is the EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE *UNTIL* the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The verses above prove that the Holy Spirit is sealed *UNTIL* the day of redemption.
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“Oh ok, so it’s optional? They should, but should they decide to not obey them, they are still saved and won’t die? Just like Satan says?”
A Christian should ALWAYS obey Christ, but do we NOT fall short? So you HAVEN’T fallen short since the day you got saved? You haven’t sinned SINCE???
(1 John 1:8-10 — If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.)
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“Do people end up in hell due their failure to not being predestined to heaven but being predestined to hell? If they are predestined to hell from the beginning of the world, can they change this path? If no, God alone must be blamed for all sinners.”
People end up in hell for NOT putting their faith in Jesus Christ. People HAVE THE CHOICE to either accept Christ’s work on the cross or REJECT it. A person cannot blame God for going to hell. That sounds like something an atheist would say… God KNOWS who will be saved and who WON’T BE! God knew that Adam would sin, but was He at fault for knowing? NO! Adam STILL had the choice to either OBEY God or NOT obey Him. Adam chose the latter, and thus, sin came into the world. Also, our salvation is apart of God’s will:
Ephesians 1:11 — In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH *ALL THINGS* AFTER THE COUNSEL OF *HIS OWN WILL*:
Not only is Paul saying that the obtaining of our inheritance is apart of Gods’s will, but that *ALL THINGS* are apart of God’s will:
“…WHO WORKETH THE COUNSEL OF *ALL THINGS* AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL”
The argument that God would be at fault or people going to hell because of His will is weak…
➖➖➖➖➖➖➖
“Oh ok, so it’s optional? They should, but should they decide to not obey them, they are still saved and won’t die? Just like Satan says?”
I agree that keeping Christs commandments (Loving God and loving others) is something that EVERY CHRISTIAN SHOULD DO! BUT, THEY DO NOT SAVE!
LikeLike
Hey Brandon
<<Predestined means that God already KNOWS who will be saved.
Knowing who will be saved is one thing, predestining someone to be saved is something else. The Bibel doesn't say that God predestines individuals for salvation/damnation.
<<So James 2:18 doesn’t start off saying ”Yea, a MAN may say…”?
Of course he does, and did you read what I said about it? Did you read the verses before and after as I suggested?
<<Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 both make it perfectly clear that we are not saved of works and neither do we have to ”work” to stay or be justified….
Again, it's about Paul's attempt to get the Jews to understand that we are not saved due to obeying the 613 Jewish commandments in the law of Moses. I've already given you loads of verses which clearly show that we are doomed without works – that type of "works" that we are supposed to WALK in as per Eph. 2:10. Here are 150 things we must DO to get saved according to the Bible:
https://bjorkbloggen.com/2015/07/08/150-things-we-must-do-to-get-saved-and-the-myth-of-salvation-by-faith-alone/
<<Then salvation isn’t only of God. Salvation is of myself to since I have to do extra…
Of course salvation is only of God. We are 100% lost without him, so salvation is only due to his mercy.
<<(Ephesians 2:8 —
A verse which doesn't say that we are free to sin and still be saved. Don't forget v. 10
<<Now that we have established that there is NOTHING we can do to justify ourselves before God, was Jesus’ blood ENOUGH to WASH my sins away?
Of course it was. Jesus died for the world, right? Does this mean that the people of the whole world are cleansed in the blood of Jesus and saved? OR, is there a requirement that they must repent, believe and WALK in the good works which God prepared for us?
<< I’ve BEEN trying to tell you that we’re a purchased possession and used Ephesians 1:11-14,
I've already showed you that people can be purchased and still lost. Then they are no more christians.
<< which says that the Holy Spirit is the EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE! Our eternal security is GUARANTEED! Read Ephesians 1:13-14:
Nowhere does it say that salvation is guaranteed. But maybe good news for you, because that means you can refuse to forgive a brother, deny Jesus and take the mark of the beast – and still be saved. Very convenient.
<< ye were SEALED with that HOLY SPIRIT
Sealed means marked. A seal can be boken.
<<The verses above prove that the Holy Spirit is sealed *UNTIL* the day of redemption.
The verses still don't say that.
<<A Christian should ALWAYS obey Christ, but do we NOT fall short?
Every day? Every week? Every month? If we can afford to sin on a daily basis and still be saved, then it IS optional to obey God or not. Your teaching is that it's not important to obey God, because we're guaranteed salvation regardless of what we do.
<<(1 John 1:8-10 — If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.)
You tend to forget exactly those verses which show that we must do things to be saved. The verse before this says:
"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth"
So, if we walk in darkness (if we sin), we LIE and we are not doing the truth. This means we are lost. Or is there not one minute when you can say "I have no sin"? Not even one minute after you have repented? Do you sin around the clock?
<< People end up in hell for NOT putting their faith in Jesus Christ.
How could they put their faith in Jesus if they are not predestined to do that?
<< People HAVE THE CHOICE to either accept Christ’s work on the cross or REJECT it.
Not if they are predestined to heaven/hell.
<<A person cannot blame God for going to hell.
Why not, if they are predestined to hell by God?
<< God KNOWS who will be saved and who WON’T BE!
Knowing is one thing. Predestining is something completely different.
<< NO! Adam STILL had the choice to either OBEY God or NOT obey Him.
Yes, meaning your doctrine is false.
<<Ephesians 1:11 — In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE OF HIM WHO WORKETH *ALL THINGS* AFTER THE COUNSEL OF *HIS OWN WILL*:
Ok, so do you interpret that verse as though nothing happens against God's will? So did Adam sin against God's will or according to God's will?
<< ”…WHO WORKETH THE COUNSEL OF *ALL THINGS* AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL”
Could it be according to God's will to create man with free will and responsible for his own actions?
<< I agree that keeping Christs commandments (Loving God and loving others) is something that EVERY CHRISTIAN SHOULD DO! BUT, THEY DO NOT SAVE!
So it's optional and not important. According to you christians are no different than atheists since we all sin. And christians can afford to sin because they still won't die. Just like Satan says. Whose side are you on?
GBU
LikeLike
Lägg av! Om du tror att en född på nytt kristen kan förlora sin frälsning så vet du inget om frälsningens eviga säkerhet och du borde stänga din blogg därför att du lurar okunniga kristna spädbarn!
LikeLike
Om omvändelse och frälsning innebär att man garanterat kommer att nå himmelriket oavsett hur man lever, ja då khar man förstås råd med att inte förlåta en broder, förneka Jesus under förföljelser och även ta vilddjurets märke. Bibeln lär inte att korset vi ska bära är fjäderlätt.
LikeLike
Please note that the word “believe” in John 3:16 is from the Greek “pisteuon” which is a present tense verb thus translated as “believing.” As such, it does not refer to a one-time moment of belief in the past as to when one trusted and believed in Jesus as one’s Savior. Rather, one must continue to believe in order to have eternal life. We are purchased with the blood of the Lamb when we believe BUT that belief must be continued throughout one’s lifetime. Heb 5:9 has the same present tense verb construction when it come to obedience – “and having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all those OBEYING Him.” Remaining sealed requires both ongoing belief and ongoing obedience. Disbelief and disobedience grieves and breaks the Spirit’s seal disqualifying those from their inheritance.
LikeLike
Good point! God bless
LikeLike
The only thing that is totally secure in a born again Christian´s life is his eternal salvation. God looks at that person as “glorified” before is actually happens! Rom 8:30.
That person´s name is written in the Lamb´s book of Life before he/she is even born. Rev 13:8, 17:8
And it can´t be removed!
A minister who explain this well is William MacDonald.
—
Please don´t write anything else on internet until you understand this thing.
James 3:1
God bless you!
Ove Lackell (missionary in Brazil 1991-2006)
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey Ove
Truly wonderful to have been a missionary. For so long! In Brazil!
I’m not quite in agreement with you about the way you describe eternal salvation, but maybe it’s only the way you express it 🙂 Who gets eternal life? The one who obeys Jesus (Hebr. 5:9). Jesus tells us that a branch can be cut off the vine due to lack of fruit, etc. I’ve written blog posts about the verses you mention, but they might be buried in everything else I’ve written…If we would be eternally secure no matter what (after being born again), then we could absolutely afford to hate a brother, disown Jesus and take the mark of the beast. A person can be removed from the book of life, and there is only one book of life:
https://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22/there-is-only-one-book-of-life-and-names-can-be-removed-from-it/
GBU
LikeLike
Hi again
Instead of me explaining ETERNAL SECURITY to you I encourage you to read some things that real balanced ministers wrote on this.
—
A born again Christian will always try to live holy, but he fails sometimes.
This is real basic stuff, and I encourage you to study more on this.
Writing on internet is a serious thing.
James 3:1, 2 Tim 2:15
Every born again Christian will meet Jesus at the Judgment Seat of Christ one day
Rom 14:10, 1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 5:10
And He will judge us in 4 basic areas:
1. How we permitted him to form our character.
Rom 8:29, Gal 2:20, 4:19
2. How we did His works.
Eph 2:10, 1 Cor 13:1-13
3. How we understood and taught the Word of God.
James 3:1, 2 Tim 2:15, Eph 4:11-15
4. How we prayed.
Col 1:9-12
God bless you, my friend!
Ove
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey Ove
Thanks for your input. (However, I removed the book titles, because I’m concerned what is promoted on my blog.)
I’m pleased to see that we’re in agreement that we will also be judged based on our works (permitting him to form our character and deciding to do his works are issues that are dependent on us). In fact, we will get eternal life if we have lived righteous lives. Naturally we must first be cleansed from our sins in the blood of Jesus.
Ja. 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
Who is righteous? We are told to not be deceived about this.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: he that DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous.
Only the righteous will be saved. If it’s true that we are eternally secure as soon as we are born again and that nothing can change this position, then it wouldn’t be a “serious matter” if I write the contrary on my blog, because what are the risks at stake? Christians can’t lose their salvation, and the word of God is still spread for the rest.
In reality, sins continue to separate us from God. It was Satan who spread the opposite story and continues to do so. “Ye shall not surely die”, is what Satan wants us to believe.
We must stay alert. I write a lot about these issues.
Have a great day, and GBU
LikeLike
Pingback: People think you have to keep grace on a leash - Page 19 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
You are missing one very important thing about being “sealed”. All of the examples of “sealed” that you have given are mans seals. This seal is by GOD! The same God that has promised to keep us through HIS power, not ours. 1 Peter 1:5
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey im
Nowhere in the Bible will you see the claim that a person is “sealed” with the meaning of not being able to lose his grip in Christ no matter what he does. As I wrote, having a “seal” often means to have a “mark” as in being very special, and we as christians with the holy Spirit are indeed “a peculiar people”. We are marked as long as we remain in the vine, but a branch can be cut off the vine due to lack of fruit. If a marked born again christian could never lose his grip in Christ, he could definitely afford to hate, refuse to forgive a brother, deny Jesus, take the mark of the beast, and still be saved. That would be a license to sin.It’s also true that we can never save ourselves through our power.
LikeLike
Pingback: Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19) - Page 25 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
Sir, please reference Ephesians 2:8. See the Father’s role in salvation John 17, John 6:44, as well as repentance being something God gives (2 Timothy 2:25).
Thank you,
Dan
LikeLike
Hello
I’m not a Sir, but that’s alright.
I’ve made articles also about Eph. 2:8, where we can see that salvation (not faith) is a gift, and that it’s something that we can’t earn by anything we do. We can get this free gift through faith, which is required from us. Salvation is free but not without conditions, or else Jesus wouldn’t preach “repent or perish”. I’ve also written an article about John 6:44 and the many conditions involved, as well as John 17.
GBU
LikeLike
Hi, you say that the text does not say “(unto) the day of redemption” so then why does the king jmaes version say this? please explain
thanks
LikeLike
Hey Roy
No, I said that the text does not say “UNTIL” the day of redemption. It says UNTO, and apart from “unto” it can mean “FOR”.
(I highlighted it now, and also added a link.)
God bless
LikeLike
Rom. 2:25For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law:but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
This was used entirely out of context. Notice: Romans 3 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
At this point he changes direction. Prior to Romans 3 21, he was referring to man under the law. BUT NOW is where we are today in the dispensation of grace. Paul is the ONLY apostle to teach the doctrine of grace and since we are in the body of Christ, and he is the Apostle of the Gentiles, you must follow his teachings (actually Christ’s teachings through Paul). If you do not rightly divide Gods word (II Tim 2:15), you will mix things up and not understand the message for us today…
LikeLike
Not sure if this is spam or not?
<<Paul is the ONLY apostle to teach the doctrine of grace
Not only Paul spoke about grace, but others did too. What does grace mean?
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
So the offer of salvation is given to ALL MEN, and it's a power to live free of sin.
God bless
LikeLike
You are teaching a works salvation. Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit. John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Paul then said, Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 1Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s. 2Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. The Holy Spirit does NOT remove himself until God redeems the believer.
You are saying if you go back to your old ways, he will leave.
Well, what are the attributes of the Holy Spirit? One is to convict you of sins. So why would he leave due to sins? Do you not know sins were already judged at the cross?
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. What is missing in these two verses I posted from Romans 8? Sin is, cause it was already judged.
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
God Bless, Michael.
LikeLike
Hello Michael
Is James teaching a “works salvation” as well?
Jas. 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
Yes, the holy Spirit is sent but, as you quotes, we can grieve the holy Spirit and we are only saved if we are led by the Spirit. Not if we turn around and sin.
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Blessings
LikeLike
I agree with you, jw skriver, it’s taken out of context. This Article is adding to the Bible what it should not. What does God warn to those who add to His word? Maybe read Rev again. Whomever wrote this article should be double checking and begging for forgiveness from God for leading people away from what God promises. Either you believe Christ or you don’t when He promises to give you eternal life forever by believing in Him without any conditions (john6).
To the person who wrote this, ill ask you the same things that I asked a couple of other nimrods who were trying to push on me the same thing of what you’re trying to convince people is truth.
Logically, a person is only saved by Christ’s Spirit being in a person (1 john 4:13) which He freely gives to those who believe in Him. Yes, no? Show me a Bible verse that specifically says (not your man-made assumption) Christ’s Spirit leaves a believer because of x, y, or z. Show me a Bible verse that says the Holy Spirit’s seal is broken because of our own actions. Btw, ephesians passage that you quoted doesn’t count because it doesn’t state that seal as being conditional but you pulled verses out of your ass and ADDED to God’s word!
Here’s an even simpler question for you: what does being saved even mean? What is one saved from? Hell? Lake of fire? Not having a life of honor in the Kingdom of God? Yeah, we Christians can be in heaven but not get to take part in being a useful vessel for Christ in His Kingdom. Read up on it! Also, is shell and lake of fire same thing? Read rev 20 to find out.
Last question, is moses eternally saved? According to his story of hitting the rock moses should be burning in hell –separated from God for eternity because he hit that rock in Numbers. Yet, the disciples still witnessed Moses talking with Jesus on the mount during His transfiguration in the new testament. So explain that away. Oh, and don’t say that moses was a part of the old law and therefore his case for being eternally saved in New law terms is void. Saying that the old testament doesn’t apply is an easy comp-out (not even a comp-out because you can’t have the old testament without the new). Also, I haven’t been able to find in the Bible where moses ended up repenting from hitting that rock. So, is moses eternally saved? He still got to see the promised land but not enter it.
Hope I don’t sound too harsh, but I’m really tired of running across people who share your ideology and try to corrupt what the savior of the world has established. You can’t make your own righteousness to save yourself, only Christ can save.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hello there
Hope you’re well today!
<< Either you believe Christ or you don't when He promises to give you eternal life forever by believing in Him without any conditions (john6).
You referred to John 6, but I'm afraid it doesn't say what you claim there. Remember to not add to the Bible 🙂
There are numerous conditions listed in John 6. Do read my article about it when you get a chance. We can read that we must be COME and BELIEVE, as well as eating his bread. God draws (we can't be saved unless he draws), but all don't come. Those who do come him are all drawn.
<<Logically, a person is only saved by Christ's Spirit being in a person (1 john 4:13) which He freely gives to those who believe in Him. Yes, no?
Yes, if you by that also mean that OBEYING him a is also a requirement for getting the holy Ghost (Acts 5:32)
<< Show me a Bible verse that says the Holy Spirit's seal is broken because of our own actions.
A seal can be broken, so if you claim it can't it's up to you to prove. Judas was provided spiritual gifts (ability to drive out demons, heal, etc) by Jesus, but he isn't saved. We can definitely lose our salvation due to our actions. Read John 15. A branch can be cut off from the vine due to lack of fruit. The prodigal son went from life, to death, to life again.
<<Btw, ephesians passage that you quoted doesn't count because it doesn't state that seal as being conditional but you pulled verses out of your ass and ADDED to God's word!
It's conditional.
<< Yeah, we Christians can be in heaven but not get to take part in being a useful vessel for Christ in His Kingdom.
????
<<Last question, is moses eternally saved? According to his story of hitting the rock moses should be burning in hell –separated from God for eternity because he hit that rock in Numbers.
The Bible says that anyone can become forgiven if he/she confesses his/her sins and repent. Moses included.
<< Also, I haven't been able to find in the Bible where moses ended up repenting from hitting that rock.
So cats and mashed potatoes don't exist because they are not in the Bible? Does it say Moses did NOT repent?
<<Hope I don't sound too harsh,
You do sound both harsh and hateful. Ask yourself if you truly have the love of God in your heart and able to be patient with others when you speak about the word of God.
<<You can't make your own righteousness to save yourself, only Christ can save.
Since I've never claimed we can save ourselves, I'm not quite following you. There are conditions for salvation however. Who is righteous? Those who DO righteousness:
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
We are asked to not be deceived about this, so be careful about those who claim that we can be saved by leading on Christ's righteousness alone. WE have to be righteous.
God bless
LikeLike
God’s seal can only be broken by God and He will not break it!
The moment a person is born again that person is already glorified in God’s eyes! Rom 8:30
No one who is truly born again will ever be lost again! John 10:28-29
Ove (missionary in Brazil 1991-2006 and teacher in a Bible school while in Brazil)
Check my last book by clicking LUCIFER BY OVE LACKELL on Google God bless those who grows in their Bible knowledge!
2 Tim 2:15, James 3:1
Ove
LikeLike
Hey Ove
<<God’s seal can only be broken by God and He will not break it!
He will definitely break it due to bad conduct on our part. Compare with God's eternal covenant with Israel, which was supposed to be forever. Israel broke it.
<<The moment a person is born again that person is already glorified in God’s eyes! Rom 8:30
That is good news to know that our sins are forgiven before we even commit then and that we can afford to serve two masters and still be saved. (Being ironic…)
<<No one who is truly born again will ever be lost again! John 10:28-29
It's important to also add. v. 27 so that we can understand who the promise is about. It's about the sheep who FOLLOW him, so as long as we do this we are safe.
God bless
LikeLike
Hey TIm
You said: <<<You sir are a Heretic!
I'm not a man and you have not shown me in your post why I would be heretical. I say Amen to all your Bible verses.
<<<<Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done—-
That's true. He certainly didn't save us because we have always been righteous. Does it say in this verse that we can be saved *without* righteousness though? No, the Bible divides us into Sinners (righteous) or Saints (unrighteous) so it's one or the other. Unless we're righteous, we can't be saved.
<<Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved —
Amen, we are saved by grace and not because we have always done good. What does God's grace mean? It means, among other things, a help to avoid sin here and now (Titus 2:12-13).
<<Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works
Amen, and nowhere does it say that God chooses certain people and injects/transfers righteousness into them (which makes them righteousness no matter their conduct). We are blessed if we choose to repent so that we can be cleansed and become righteous. How long are we cleansed? Until we sin again, and we are told to avoid sin and endure to the end.
<<Works Salvation Robs Jesus Christ of His Glory and is Straight out of the Pits of Hell.
This means that Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, etc are in danger of the hell fire. They all taught that faith alone is dead and that we must be faithful to God. Example:
Ja. 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
<<How can a man be Born Again Lose it and then Born Again?
Does this imply that a person can mix sin and righteousness each day and still be saved? Is this what you call "carry the cross"? If a person chooses to return to his vomit, he is no longer saved. Read the story about the prodigal son who was alive, dead and alive again. You are supposed to leave the sins behind you.
<<How many Times were you Born of your Mother? ONCE!
Naturally. Unlike salvation, where you can certainly lose it, and a branch can be cut off the vine due to lack of fruit even though it used to be attached to the vine.
<<Jesus said if you drink of this water you will never Thirst again “How man times must one Drink?” ONCE.
So you only drink once in a lifetime and that's enough?
<<Jesus said I give unto them Eternal Life and they shall Never Perish.
You forget to read all the conditions in that chapter.
<<I do not appreciate you calling my Saviour a Liar!
I haven't called him a liar, and that means you're a liar. But if you're correct in your theology view, it doesn't matter if you lie, commit adultery, murder, etc because you're still saved. Moreover, if we can never lose our salvation then why would it matter if someone says something heretical? Or is this a sin that will make you lose your salvation after all?
LikeLike